Author Topic: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.  (Read 2765 times)

Offline Skullfrost

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Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« on: October 23, 2019, 11:37:33 am »
Okay, so, since the rules have been updated, I've noticed that under swearing and cursing, it now says it is "frowned upon" and "MAY result in a ban".

This implies that cursing is not necessarily against the rules, but may result in a ban if taken too far or w/e.

So, can we get an actual clarification on the specifics of this? Is light cursing allowed if not directed at other people, or is any and all cursing a bannable offense? The rules as they are written now aren't really clear on that.

Alongside that, while the main suggestion is clarification, I would like to give my two cents on the rule in general.

Personally, I believe that light swearing/cursing should be permitted, so long as it is not excessive or aimed at someone. As far as I'm aware, FH is a 13+ game, (as according to COPPA law children under 13 cannot play FH as sites are not allowed to collect information from children such as email addresses for accounts) and at 13...

Kids curse at 13. 13 is around middle school age, and let me tell you: middle schoolers curse a lot, on a regular basis. They can handle a few light swears sometimes being said. Someone going "S***! This shocking thing just happened!" is really not an issue.

The only issue I really see with cursing in a place like this is if it is one of the more vulgar and insulting terms, such as the W or C words used to insult women, or just in general it is directed offensively at someone else.

Obviously, someone should not be allowed to say, "F*** you" or w/e or curse at someone in an inflammatory manner(although that's just common sense and would be part of the "respect others" rule regardless). However, I believe there should be some leniency when it comes to general use of words commonly thought of as "curses" when used non-offensively.

In modern days, 'curse words' are much more often used as just normal words in peoples' everyday vocabulary. Expressions like, "Holy s***!" are common, and personally I find banning stuff like that altogether is... a bit much, honestly.

tl;dr light cursing/swearing should not be considered a bannable offense so long as someone isn't just slinging expletives at people and being inflammatory. Someone should be allowed to casually say a word, especially when it's become normal vocabulary for a lot of people nowadays, and, let's face it... FH is mostly older players now. Registration has been closed, barely ever opening except on very rare occasions, for years now. Almost all people that remain are older players, who are /certainly/ old enough that... it doesn't really make sense to restrict language so much anymore.

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2019, 01:40:58 pm »
"so long as it is not excessive or aimed at someone."

This is already how it has been for some time. But users will be excessive/offensive about it and claim they were not, so that's my two cents. c:
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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2019, 04:57:31 pm »
I kind of agree but I also kinda don't. I personally feel that if we let people know that swearing is allowed (light or not) they will start to try to push the boundaries and we might see many trolls start using that as new ammunition. People are bound to use it in a way that might hurt others (either knowingly or unknowingly) or might use it excessively. I do believe that registration is open completely now (don't quote me though), and new people are joining every day. This game does have a very positive community and if a new person joins the game and sees that we are no different from, let's say, the Call of Duty community, then that might scare a few people off.

I also agree that it should be allowed though because it is common in everyday language for most of us. I'll admit that I have said a few things in the local chat that I prolly should not have because I am so used to saying it in my everyday life. Many of those who are on Feral Heart are older, but I do know that there are still some groups out there that will not tolerate any sort of swearing in their groups.

This could go both ways, and I do like how you stated it in a way that explains why you think that it should be allowed!

Offline Skullfrost

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2019, 05:10:32 pm »
I kind of agree but I also kinda don't. I personally feel that if we let people know that swearing is allowed (light or not) they will start to try to push the boundaries and we might see many trolls start using that as new ammunition. People are bound to use it in a way that might hurt others (either knowingly or unknowingly) or might use it excessively. I do believe that registration is open completely now (don't quote me though), and new people are joining every day. This game does have a very positive community and if a new person joins the game and sees that we are no different from, let's say, the Call of Duty community, then that might scare a few people off.

I also agree that it should be allowed though because it is common in everyday language for most of us. I'll admit that I have said a few things in the local chat that I prolly should not have because I am so used to saying it in my everyday life. Many of those who are on Feral Heart are older, but I do know that there are still some groups out there that will not tolerate any sort of swearing in their groups.

This could go both ways, and I do like how you stated it in a way that explains why you think that it should be allowed!


This argument doesn't really work, because it has been proven to be false via the fact that MANY other similar communities to FH employ the rule of, "light swearing/cursing is allowed, so long as it is not excessive or aimed at other users in an inflammatory and insulting manner" and have been just fine, and in fact can even be great communities full of nice, respectful people.

Most people have the common sense to know the difference between calling someone a "female dog" or whatever and simply saying, "wow that's f'in cool" or "holy s---" or whatever, and understand the difference between "excessive profanity" and "light cursing". Light cursing is occasionally just... saying words. Excessive is slinging expletives AT people and being inflammatory towards other users.

tl;dr words should not be banned, what should matter is in what context and how the words are used.

SpicyDirt

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2019, 05:33:26 pm »
I kind of agree but I also kinda don't. I personally feel that if we let people know that swearing is allowed (light or not) they will start to try to push the boundaries and we might see many trolls start using that as new ammunition. People are bound to use it in a way that might hurt others (either knowingly or unknowingly) or might use it excessively. I do believe that registration is open completely now (don't quote me though), and new people are joining every day. This game does have a very positive community and if a new person joins the game and sees that we are no different from, let's say, the Call of Duty community, then that might scare a few people off.

I also agree that it should be allowed though because it is common in everyday language for most of us. I'll admit that I have said a few things in the local chat that I prolly should not have because I am so used to saying it in my everyday life. Many of those who are on Feral Heart are older, but I do know that there are still some groups out there that will not tolerate any sort of swearing in their groups.

This could go both ways, and I do like how you stated it in a way that explains why you think that it should be allowed!


This argument doesn't really work, because it has been proven to be false via the fact that MANY other similar communities to FH employ the rule of, "light swearing/cursing is allowed, so long as it is not excessive or aimed at other users in an inflammatory and insulting manner" and have been just fine, and in fact can even be great communities full of nice, respectful people.

Most people have the common sense to know the difference between calling someone a "female dog" or whatever and simply saying, "wow that's f'in cool" or "holy s---" or whatever, and understand the difference between "excessive profanity" and "light cursing". Light cursing is occasionally just... saying words. Excessive is slinging expletives AT people and being inflammatory towards other users.

tl;dr words should not be banned, what should matter is in what context and how the words are used.

See but people don't always follow the rules word-for-word. Also, there are quite a few who would not know the line between excessive and "what is allowed." Many in the game have not noticed the change in the rules that state that swearing may result in a ban. I just personally would hate to see people swearing in the game because to me, that brings down the overall view of the community. But like I said above, I agree but I also disagree. I do think some words should be completely banned, however.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:44:20 pm by SpicyDirt »

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2019, 03:33:28 am »
i personally believe that the game should have a rule against obscenity, not profanity. there's an entire themysteriousmrenter video that perfectly sums up how i feel about language censorship towards children.
and the fact is.. communities aren't babysitters. parents should know what their kid is up to and also what their kid is able to handle in terms of strong language.. but this is definitely not an easy ordinance to pass since there would be people who'd be more than happy to blur the line for their benefit.


i do agree that the rule could be a little more.. concise. i'm very grateful for the rewrite and all the other rehauls of our rules are perfectly comprehensive but the swearing one.. and the fact it's ended with "just ask a mod.." a lot of floofs, especially new ones, are probably going to be much too shy to do that.
i think putting something like ""f-word" = ban" wouldn't hurt anyone. just. something to make it a little more concrete would benefit a lot of us sinners.
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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2019, 04:26:17 am »

I can agree with points Polyphonic made above ^
The rule pointed out is pretty tasteless, and doesn't provide much depth for the reader to digest; however, in a perspective it comes off as... "it should be up to personal discretion on interpretation, and watch your term usages when actively communicating with other- possibly young- players on the server.."


Quote
Respect Each Other: Keep Appropriate Language & Discussion
Cursing/Swearing is frowned upon. Doing so may result in a ban.


Here's what I comprehend when I peruse the sentence. -->
What's straightforward : Cursing/Swearing may result in a ban.
So that gives you room to question how far you can go in terms of profanity before a Staff member executes a ban?
Something like "Oh * I just dropped my waffle" shouldn't go to the extent of deserving a ban, however something like "Oh go * yourself, Jerry lol you stupid *-" is more deserving. Depends on the context as well as the situation. I feel like a Moderator could give a more efficient answer on how they go about punishments of that like, though.
Like Poly said, it's more obscenity rather profanity.

"Be mature and appropriate; Choose your (curse/swear) words wisely. Don’t overuse them, and don’t use them to be insulting, antagonizing, or inflaming towards others."

Children will inevitably be exposed to the nature of obscene speech and vulgarities, however to an extent the server rules can limit what is presented towards the younger audience. Each of us could hold different aspects over this, though.
These are just my personal two cents regarding the topic.  :P
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 05:26:22 am by Dinhosaurr »

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2019, 05:23:07 am »
Thank you for sharing your concerns and suggestions in regards to the rules.

The rule:

“Cursing/Swearing is frowned upon. Doing so may result in a ban.”

This rule was written to be so “ambiguous” on purpose. I’ll try to be brief in explaining things for the sake of this thread but this topic has been a meaty one amongst staff.

For a long time now staff have debated on whether the rule policy on swearing should be changed or not. We got to the point where we created two sets of these same rules you see here, one being the one that contains the current swearing rule and another that allows it. Because staff understand the pros and cons of either policy we’ve constantly come to a stand still on the issue. There’s also the fact that Raz wants to maintain the age appropriateness of the game and really doesn’t approve of swearing. The same arguments come up again and again for reasons why the rule should or shouldn’t be changed. There really is no black or white solution, especially when we are trying to increase the consistency of the penalties staff hand out to rule breakers. Either we completely forbid swearing or allow it fully, and doing either or still causes us to run into problems.

If we forbid swearing completely, this means people would be banned for any word that is considered as a swear word regardless of the context it was used in or if it was censored, and or a “mild” swear.  This would be ridiculously extreme and honestly wouldn’t feel fair to us or the users.

If we allow swearing then that means there would be absolutely no exception to words used, their context, and level of obscenity. Without saying any specific words here you can already immediately imagine how problematic this can be...  (Not to mention if we ever want to have something like a general chat back, which I doubt will return since Raz is against it but still... or even maintaining registration open.)

So most will suggest: What about just posting a list of words that get you banned and or swear words that are considered ok?

The problems with this:

1.) Some swear words have multiple meanings and while are ok in some circumstances they are not in others. (Again not saying any specific words here for obvious reasons.) If we create a list (which we actually did) it becomes ridiculously convoluted with explanations of what contexts a word isn’t and is allowed in. It gets to a point where it’s best to just not allow the word to avoid any unnecessary confusion. You’ll have cases where people will argue the context of a swear word that appears on the list and whether they used it inappropriately or not.

Ex: there are some words out there that are totally harmless but become swear words depending the way they’re used. For the simple fact that said words can be used as swear words they should technically be on the list.

2.) If some swear words are allowed and others are not people will find loopholes and or alternatives and then we need to keep modifying the list to include alternatives. (If you’ve ever played old WolfQuest this was a reason why their chat censoring system got so messy, as well as other similar games that try to build censors.)

3.) The list is biased. Depending where you were born, raised, etc we all interpret words in our language differently. What some consider swearing others may not.

4.) Our game and community is meant to stay welcoming to everyone, not just teens & adults but children as well. By allowing swearing of any sort we open up the grounds to all sorts of negative conversation and verbal abuse to our users. Unfortunately as hard as we try to keep this place a safe haven for everyone there are users who find ways to abuse even now. Why make it easier? Even if we allow some swears and not others it’s still an open invitation to unsavory language and topics being brought.

5.) Having a list of swear words that are allowed or not allowed just paint an ugly image to our game. Just imagine the sort of vulgar words we’d need to post to make this point... Parents have often reached out to staff and many younger users aren’t allowed to play Feral Heart until their parents have read and assessed our rules with them. By having such an unsavory list public we lose a lot of potential users but also discourage many other types of users from joining. Just because one person is comfortable with swearing doesn’t mean others are regardless of age. There are a number of users who like the community to stay swear free for more than one reason.

So back to the rule:

“Cursing/Swearing is frowned upon. Doing so may result in a ban.”

This rule was written this way to avoid having to either completely forbid or allow swearing. Essentially it’s written as a precaution but also a fail safe in the case of reports or sticky situations where the solution isn’t all black or white. Every scenario of swearing is dealt with on a case by case basis. There will be times where some words will not get as severe a penalty or any penalty. But we can’t exactly say what words or what penalty if any because people will find loopholes and or ways to abuse the system. By writing the rule this way we are letting users know that swearing isn’t agreed upon and there is a risk of getting banned if they decide to do so. It’s up to the user if the risk of getting banned is worth swearing.

I hope this helps everyone to understand it a bit better ^^ But yeah if you have any further questions on this topic it’s best to pm staff about it directly.

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2019, 09:46:13 am »
Thank you for sharing your concerns and suggestions in regards to the rules.

The rule:

“Cursing/Swearing is frowned upon. Doing so may result in a ban.”

This rule was written to be so “ambiguous” on purpose. I’ll try to be brief in explaining things for the sake of this thread but this topic has been a meaty one amongst staff.

For a long time now staff have debated on whether the rule policy on swearing should be changed or not. We got to the point where we created two sets of these same rules you see here, one being the one that contains the current swearing rule and another that allows it. Because staff understand the pros and cons of either policy we’ve constantly come to a stand still on the issue. There’s also the fact that Raz wants to maintain the age appropriateness of the game and really doesn’t approve of swearing. The same arguments come up again and again for reasons why the rule should or shouldn’t be changed. There really is no black or white solution, especially when we are trying to increase the consistency of the penalties staff hand out to rule breakers. Either we completely forbid swearing or allow it fully, and doing either or still causes us to run into problems.

If we forbid swearing completely, this means people would be banned for any word that is considered as a swear word regardless of the context it was used in or if it was censored, and or a “mild” swear.  This would be ridiculously extreme and honestly wouldn’t feel fair to us or the users.

If we allow swearing then that means there would be absolutely no exception to words used, their context, and level of obscenity. Without saying any specific words here you can already immediately imagine how problematic this can be...  (Not to mention if we ever want to have something like a general chat back, which I doubt will return since Raz is against it but still... or even maintaining registration open.)

So most will suggest: What about just posting a list of words that get you banned and or swear words that are considered ok?

The problems with this:

1.) Some swear words have multiple meanings and while are ok in some circumstances they are not in others. (Again not saying any specific words here for obvious reasons.) If we create a list (which we actually did) it becomes ridiculously convoluted with explanations of what contexts a word isn’t and is allowed in. It gets to a point where it’s best to just not allow the word to avoid any unnecessary confusion. You’ll have cases where people will argue the context of a swear word that appears on the list and whether they used it inappropriately or not.

Ex: there are some words out there that are totally harmless but become swear words depending the way they’re used. For the simple fact that said words can be used as swear words they should technically be on the list.

2.) If some swear words are allowed and others are not people will find loopholes and or alternatives and then we need to keep modifying the list to include alternatives. (If you’ve ever played old WolfQuest this was a reason why their chat censoring system got so messy, as well as other similar games that try to build censors.)

3.) The list is biased. Depending where you were born, raised, etc we all interpret words in our language differently. What some consider swearing others may not.

4.) Our game and community is meant to stay welcoming to everyone, not just teens & adults but children as well. By allowing swearing of any sort we open up the grounds to all sorts of negative conversation and verbal abuse to our users. Unfortunately as hard as we try to keep this place a safe haven for everyone there are users who find ways to abuse even now. Why make it easier? Even if we allow some swears and not others it’s still an open invitation to unsavory language and topics being brought.

5.) Having a list of swear words that are allowed or not allowed just paint an ugly image to our game. Just imagine the sort of vulgar words we’d need to post to make this point... Parents have often reached out to staff and many younger users aren’t allowed to play Feral Heart until their parents have read and assessed our rules with them. By having such an unsavory list public we lose a lot of potential users but also discourage many other types of users from joining. Just because one person is comfortable with swearing doesn’t mean others are regardless of age. There are a number of users who like the community to stay swear free for more than one reason.

So back to the rule:

“Cursing/Swearing is frowned upon. Doing so may result in a ban.”

This rule was written this way to avoid having to either completely forbid or allow swearing. Essentially it’s written as a precaution but also a fail safe in the case of reports or sticky situations where the solution isn’t all black or white. Every scenario of swearing is dealt with on a case by case basis. There will be times where some words will not get as severe a penalty or any penalty. But we can’t exactly say what words or what penalty if any because people will find loopholes and or ways to abuse the system. By writing the rule this way we are letting users know that swearing isn’t agreed upon and there is a risk of getting banned if they decide to do so. It’s up to the user if the risk of getting banned is worth swearing.

I hope this helps everyone to understand it a bit better ^^ But yeah if you have any further questions on this topic it’s best to pm staff about it directly.

So to be clear, it is intentionally ambiguous so as to make it a "case by case basis" kind of thing? So if I say, for example, "Holy s---", in a non-offensive context, I wouldn't be punished for it, but if I was reported for inflammatory language such as telling someone to go f--- themselves, I would be?

I'd just like some sort of clarification lol. Like is it truly case-by-case and thus only really judged on an individual basis and usage and context, or is it still possible to receive a punishment for non-offensive usage of something generally considered a "swear"?

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Re: Rule Clarification, + suggestion.
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2019, 10:43:08 am »
I hope this helps everyone to understand it a bit better ^^ But yeah if you have any further questions on this topic it’s best to pm staff about it directly.

The FH policy requires that we do not publicly discuss topics having anything to do with bans/kicks etc. I’ll have to lock this topic so as to keep this conversation from violating our board rules with any specific answer I may give or further specific questioning from posters here.

As I tried to explained above:

“But we can’t exactly say what words or what penalty if any because people will find loopholes and or ways to abuse the system.”

By saying yes or no publicly to any specific word or words we would be condoning swearing which is not what we want to do, but we are also still implying that there are exceptions to this rule so as to protect users in situations who it may apply to. (The concern of penalty should only be for the staff, not the user unless the user intends to violate our rule in some  way regardless of the precautionary warning we set out.)

In your example you use a word that is a swear word. No matter what context you use that word you’re implying it is a swear word. The case by case scenario only works in situations like I explained above if it’s a word that isn’t always considered as a swear in all scenarios. Example there are words that are considered “milder” or not swears but can be used as swears or inappropriate words depending the contexts.

I hope this answers your question better. If not my inbox is more than welcome to further inquiries on this topic ^^