Print Page - Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion

Game & Forum Discussion => Game Discussion => Topic started by: -Silverfeather- on July 09, 2016, 12:08:41 pm

Title: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: -Silverfeather- on July 09, 2016, 12:08:41 pm

Just wanted to show you what's going on with the feral heart youtube community right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYlVrRU575k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQFzD9zF8Mo

Yup, #SaveFh..

What do you think about all of this? I personally don't believe it helps if hundreds of people spam Red, who isn't even really involved anymore, with such messages, he even stated that he couldn't bring it back anyways..

Just had to share this after I saw those videos :o

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: ArcticGalaxy on July 09, 2016, 12:26:12 pm

Honestly, I'm getting really sick and tired of all of these people going around thinking spamming Red and trying to start a new "Hashtag Trend" just to get the old game back. That isn't going to work. Never will. This update is here to stay. I know everyone had good memories and favorite spots in the old update, but this is a chance to make new memories, to forge paths for new players. Nobody will even give this update a chance. They just automatically scream out that all of their memories are just gone.

This update was took years to actually get around to becoming public. Everyone was always complaining about how the FeralHeart was dying after Kovu left and no new updates were coming out and after certain "events" last Thanksgiving. Yes, the login page is a butt. But honestly, I would rather deal with that than personal information leaking out. Or better yet, the game getting shout down entirely, which the mods could have done a lot easier. But no, they choose to go through all of this to keep the game running. And now they have brought us this wonderful new update, and all people can do is complain. They finally get what they want....and they just throw it down and crush. it. Honestly now that it's been a month...I really don't want the old maps back. I love all of the new ones. I've found my favorite spots and I know this map like the back of my hand. I show others around even. If everyone could just be more understanding of that and ask for help, the wouldn't be having as many problems.

So basically people need to either suck it up and actual give this update a chance, or they need to find them a new game to play and stop trying to start stuff here. Rant over.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Rizzla on July 09, 2016, 12:27:05 pm

I only watched the first video, so I apologize if I've missed something.

I can't say I particularly agree or disagree with this, but I don't think it'll do much. Red wanted a break from his position, I think people should respect that- if they persist and harass him about this stuff then it won't look good on the rest of the community, and I, personally, would not give them what they want if they went that far. I'm not sure if this will spread enough at all to get like that, but if it does I don't believe it will end well.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Reaper on July 09, 2016, 12:46:34 pm

People have to respect the change. They don't have to like it, but they have to accept it. I mean things can't stay the same forever. Everything has to change. Even though the old maps are gone it doesn't mean it's the end of the world. Honestly if people do not like the update they shouldn't play it or at least just give it a while to adjust to it. People don't realize that the staff, and Red, and other users are the reason the update happened and they worked so hard for the update, yet they still get harassed for making it. People should understand that it probably took years to get this update to happen, and I bet it was really hard without a source code. I feel bad for Red, he doesn't deserve to get spammed with hashtags. Hashtags won't do anything, but only make it worse. People should just accept change.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Kynvuu on July 09, 2016, 02:39:14 pm

Honestly, the amount of irony is killing me here. While the game was in a standstill a while back, with no new updates, the amount of people pushing for an update of some kind were vividly active. People wanted to see everything in the game, as far as "hunting", "fighting", "prey" "new models", "New items", "new markings", etc. And now that some update rolls around, although it may not be exactly what some people might have hoped for, ironically, people want the "Old" FH back. I put old in quotation marks because there really is no "old" FH. It's the same game, and always will be.

Let's also not forget that when you look at this issue from a commercial point of view, an update was the only option that totally made sense. I'm sure there are people in the FH community who play other video games, other MMORPGs, etc. Take World of Warcraft for example. If you, as a customer and consumer of a product, where to go out and buy such a game, you'd be satisfied, right? Its a new game, everyone is playing, looks like a lot of fun. Cool. Well, now let's sit down and play this game for...4 years. But during these four years, nothing changes to the game at all. Its the same maps, story line, quests, characters, etc. Again, from a commercial point of view, it is only most likely that the consumer get bored, and take their business elsewhere. But say perhaps somewhere along those four years, an update came out! There are new things to do in the game, and you no longer have to do the same things over and over again. Sure, will you miss the things that were original? Of course! But now, original consumers are now sticking around to play through the new update, and the new up-play of the update has caused a whole influx of new consumers to be drawn to the game and want to play.

I suppose what I am trying to say with the above example, in short, is that any game/product that is released to the general public is going to be due for some updates after a certain amount of time. Updates are inevitable if the provider of the product wants to keep their product alive. Phones get updates, computers, games, programs, houses, cars, etc. Without update, there would be no progression. And without progression, there is no room for anything to improve or get better.

I understand people miss the old maps. Yes, I'm not entirely a crusader. I miss them too. I had a lot of fond memories in them, as I'm sure lots of other people do too. But bringing back the old maps won't bring back the memories in them. Bringing back the old maps would only call for a back step in progress, and perhaps even create more of a reason for users to abandon this game. Memories are just that, memories. All you can do is think back on them, maybe look back at a screenshot or too, and be happy about them. Memories aren't going to keep old users hanging in and new users coming into the game.

Let me also clarify that in no way did I intend to offend anyone. This is purely my opinion, and you can choose to respect it, agree, disagree, or move on. I hope I made sense in explaining the reason/importance of such an update as it makes sense in my own mind.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Wyldercat on July 09, 2016, 03:58:50 pm

I really don't see the need for this. It's ok to miss the old game. I miss it too.
But, a. the new update isn't exactly reversible
and b. Red's going inactive, spamming him won't change anything
I'm not going to make a whole rant, because blood on my hands, but I'll leave it with this.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: CosmoFursi on July 09, 2016, 04:01:01 pm

it's things like these that make me question people.

like, i just don't get it. why all the hate? people were asking for a new update for... apparently since before i knew of feralheart. and why do they think spamming red will do anything?
i mean... it took the staff years to get this update for us... i think it'll take many more to change it back, if it's even possible. it's not worth it, in my opinion.

then again, i'm probably still a naive idiot who chooses the first side i see... but i just don't understand all of this.

why can't people just appreciate what the staff have done for us?

then again people are just like that.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: KatonaKy on July 09, 2016, 04:29:49 pm

This is beyond childish. How is "The maps are big and laggy" a legit reason to strip away what people had been working on for who knows how long? Yeah, we all have fond memories of the old maps but things change. Plus, Red's going inactive for a while so their efforts are going to waste. And what does this make the rest of the community look like? A group of babies who whine when they don't get what they want.

You guys always wanted a change, but now that's it's not what you were expecting you cry? It's been a month, give it a chance. I ran around and saw tons of cute little easter eggs that made me like these maps more than the older ones.

Maybe we'll get the old maps back, I don't know. What I do know is that the staff heard them VERY LOUD and clear. If they are working on it, they'll say it. But they haven't so we don't know, and the chances are low because they update is still pretty young. Until then we will deal with what we have.

Remember, staff can shut down FH anytime, so don't bite the hand that feeds you. Crying might just get them annoyed and do just that. Of course they're stronger than that and it's not likely.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: LordSuragaha on July 09, 2016, 04:47:06 pm

I'll start by saying that people need to lay off Red.

This doesn't even look like mature discussion anymore but rather complaining and bullying all on one person. (In regards to the videos)

I'm getting really tired of everyone putting so much pressure about Feral Heart on a man that didn't even make this game to begin with. Red, like any other member of the current & past staff, took up the responsibility of caring for the abandoned community of Feral Heart. It's not our fault that the game was made broken to begin with. We do this to the best of our ability with the limited resources we have. We do this because we love the community and the game and like anyone else wants to maintain this place as a happy, fun, peaceful, get away. This "update" was made with the intentions of fixing prior old issues (those we could fix at least.) Issues like the strain the old maps placed on the server, markings creators markings being used for presets without their permissions, buttswinging/headbanging rape nonsense, etc. As a bonus besides trying to fix things we also tried to start creating a new world as a fresh start from the one that was a hopelessly abandoned one. It was all made with great love and care as a gift to the loyal community that has hung on for so long. It was a token of the staff's appreciation for this community.

So seeing this is basically like being told, I see all the work you did but I don't like it and I want old Feral Heart back so give me that.

It's selfish. Red obviously gave them a reply as to why we do not put the old maps out there again, but they want to disregard it because they want their way. On top of that they disregard what he said and now want to recruit people to go spam Red's inbox about something he already cleared up with them.

It's all selfish.

It's incredibly inconsiderate to go about telling people to message Red when he has officially taken a break from Feral Heart. It's also disrespectful to him to keep insisting on involving him in Feral Heart matters when he has made it absolutely clear that he is on a leave.

The sense of self entitlement is disturbing and disheartening to say the very least. I would expect so much better from members of the community.

It was explained that the old Feral Heart had numerous problems and by "updating" it we were able to relinquish some of those very pesky issues. It makes no sense to go back to those issues. It's selfish towards the overall continued health of the game and it's servers to even suggest so. It's selfish to the server master who has to constantly waste time dealing with an old broken version of the game when we could simply start fresh with a version that has less issues. It's also selfish on the part of the community who does appreciate and enjoy this patch.

Those using arguments like lag or missing old maps to claim that the update is worse are making invalid arguments anyway. Lag has always been an issue with Feral Heart since before the "update". The maps were purposely made to be less laggy and demanding. Also keep in mind that lag isn't solely a problem of maps or meshes, character models create lag as do your game settings and just how well your pc tollerates the game in general. There are numerous people like myself who do not experience any lag so the argument of lag is invalid. Also keep in mind we took potential lag to mind and created the "lite" version of the update... We thought things through carefully because we care about the community.

As for the "missing old maps" we already stated that we have plans to add more maps in potential future update(s) and so you may once again see maps like South Pole etc popping up again.

It's a matter of patience and consideration for the staff. We have always had your best interests in our heart. We are trying our best to keep the community happy even though making everyone 100% happy is never a realistic goal. We are trying. If Red said we are not going back to the old game for a reason then that is what it will stay as.

Also take it how you will, but if you still refuse to be patient or accepting of the change then I'm pretty sure there is a game that will satisfy your needs elsewhere in the vast world of games out there. This isn't to say that we do not appreciate you or your opinions but there is only so much sense to repeating yourself when you've already been given an explanation to something. Nothing stays the same, and when changes have been made specifically for the overall health of an abandoned game you shouldn't be so selfish as to force back what has already been undone for a good reason.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Tailgate on July 09, 2016, 04:51:05 pm

Quote from: Kynvuu on July 09, 2016, 02:39:14 pm

Honestly, the amount of irony is killing me here. While the game was in a standstill a while back, with no new updates, the amount of people pushing for an update of some kind were vividly active. People wanted to see everything in the game, as far as "hunting", "fighting", "prey" "new models", "New items", "new markings", etc. And now that some update rolls around, although it may not be exactly what some people might have hoped for, ironically, people want the "Old" FH back. I put old in quotation marks because there really is no "old" FH. It's the same game, and always will be.
...
But bringing back the old maps won't bring back the memories in them. Bringing back the old maps would only call for a back step in progress, and perhaps even create more of a reason for users to abandon this game. Memories are just that, memories.

Quote from: SoulScarredStray on July 09, 2016, 04:47:06 pm

The sense of self entitlement is disturbing and disheartening to say the very least. I would expect so much better from members of the community.

I definitely agree with this. There has been loads of hypocrisy since the update came out: People had been begging for one for years and when they finally get what they want, it's not "up to their standards". FH had been on a steady decline since the hacking attempt that lead to the login page. It sure was dying. There was also drama surrounding other parts of the game which led to various other people leaving because of that. When it updated, I'd never seen that many people online before --- coming from a person who joined in August of 2011 (and I don't remember, but it might've been a new high for FH? unless that was the forums only).

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: kiaz1st on July 09, 2016, 05:10:31 pm

I'm not going to say much on this, because others have already made all of my points. I also might like to add that despite the claims that FH is 'dieing' due to the update, we broke the record for most users online right after its release. It's rather offensive to see people lieing in order to get what they want.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: amythealpha on July 09, 2016, 07:02:49 pm

This is actually kind of amusing. I won't say much, as most people have spelled it out already, but I absolutely love the change. Sure, I'll miss the old maps, but they can always be remade. I'm glad FH changed for the better. It's because of the update that I'm back from my hiatus. If I could make videos, I'd make a lot with the update. In fact, the update made making videos BETTER, because the maps are better.

Those 'youtube rebellion' videos are making me laugh.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Wyldercat on July 09, 2016, 08:25:32 pm

Aaand the comment wars have begun. Someone call Keemstar hehe.
It seems like they're attempting damage control, but so many people are just raging about Red and signal boosting his DA page to get spammed.
Leave the poor guy alone, like seriously.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: WolfQueen on July 09, 2016, 10:11:22 pm

this isn't surprising tbh. i expected some major backlash from upset players because of the update, despite the fact that one was both constantly asked about and needed for years.

miss the old maps? that's fine. i miss them too. but it's pointless and childish to cross the line and tell people to harass someone who's not even a part of the staff team anymore.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: SophyTheLioness on July 10, 2016, 03:52:05 am

Those people are childish, and i am angry, because i don't want this to end /like this/. What if Red leaves because he gets harrassed by these FH players?. Do you want your totally not laggy and large Fluorite Plains back? Ol' Mate-Center-&-Adoption-Center-flooded Bonfire? EMPTY Last Cave? EMPTY Atlantis? EMPTY Sky's Rim? EMPTY Ascension Island? EMPTY Cape of Distant Worlds? EMPTY Temple of Dreams? ALL of these maps usually didn't surpass 20 members online at the same time. Specially Atlantis and Last Cave. South Pole had many members at once but the map didn't have many things that made it special, yes, it was Kovu's creation, but i don't know why so many attachment to it? literally just a cave and many mountains of the same texture. Change is for the greater good.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Kuri on July 10, 2016, 08:04:04 am

lol i am the least adaptable person ever and even i cope with the update just fine. If people want south pole then there are snowy maps, even i downloaded them. Sometimes you just have to "Let it go", pun intended.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Drunk on July 11, 2016, 03:27:38 am

I can't help but feel a rather pretentious vibe coming from the video creator and who ever else keep saying that they want the old maps back. You do realize there is open opportunity to continue another update with a snowy map and it could be in the future? Maybe make one yourself with the new map maker features and host a petition to get it in and have another update, but to say FH is dying when other people feel that life was breathed into it again is rather pretentious and to be frank just an opinion. There is indeed a group of people that want old FH back, I can't see why, but there are some of us who are grateful and excited about these new maps that are so much more immersive for role-play. That again, is only my opinion as well.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: cytofin on July 11, 2016, 03:45:04 pm

People have been waiting for an update, asking for it. This is what everyone does when a new update comes?
Complain about it? Yes, the old FeralHeart does hold a lot of memories within the hearts of many within the community,
but.. You have to move on at some point in time.
This may be the time to. It was sad seeing the older version go, but be happy. What if the game was able to be shut down
due to lack of updates just like Impressive World? Which It could or could not happen. I have no idea.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: LordSuragaha on July 11, 2016, 04:04:11 pm

I agree with everyone who mentioned how everyone was complaining for change and how the game is dying or was never updated...

And yet the moment we try to please the vast majority now people want to go back to complaining. Sometimes I feel like people just come up with things to have a reason to complain honestly. It's really silly.

Quote from: SophyTheLioness on July 10, 2016, 03:52:05 am

EMPTY Last Cave? EMPTY Atlantis? EMPTY Sky's Rim? EMPTY Ascension Island? EMPTY Cape of Distant Worlds? EMPTY Temple of Dreams?

^ Thank you. This is exactly what I was thinking. As a staff member for Feral Heart I've spent a great amount of time in game at numerous different hours, days, and times of the year... For the last year or so (probably more than that) it has been quite apparent that most of the maps outside of Fluorite, Ficho, and Bonfire were dead zones.

I recall when Ascension used to be a busy hub of anime fandoms and roleplays. Remember all the Hetalia roleplays? It all died. At any hour I'm lucky if I saw even one or two people on that map.

South Pole use to be very busy with a number of people grouped up and sitting close to the Lonely Cave portal entrance. Then there we scattered groups amongst the snowy hills. That all died too. On several occasions I went online and South Pole was a literal waste land with no one on the map.

Quote from: SophyTheLioness on July 10, 2016, 03:52:05 am

Specially Atlantis and Last Cave. South Pole had many members at once but the map didn't have many things that made it special, yes, it was Kovu's creation, but i don't know why so many attachment to it? literally just a cave and many mountains of the same texture.

Exactly. It was literally just a height map with a bunch of the same round bumps just randomly scattered around and a snow texture slapped on to it... I can guarantee that it wasn't hard to make at all and that little to no actual effort went into that map to actually make it look or feel like a real snowing environment. We intend on actually giving the community an enjoyable and thoughtful version of these maps.

Last Cave rarely ever had anyone in it just like Atlantis. Those maps were well known to be the maps where people ran to to try to get away in private to most often roleplay inappropriate things or buttswing on each other. And when there were normal roleplayers there, at most it was like three people on the entire map...

Skyrim used to be a hub of dragon roleplayers and just many friends hanging out together and that died too. Lucky if you saw three people there.

Cape had died substantially too. There used to be tons of people sitting up in the tip of the hill chatting away and goofing off, and in the last year or so that was all gone. The TEC group that used to chill there on the rocks was gone. Most of the Spanish roleplayers had substantially decreased. Cape was on its brink as well.

Fluorite Plains was barely alive itself, most people were gathered by the Cape portal, or Stone Bridge. If you ran out anywhere else most dens were unoccupied if not by just one or two people. There were sporadic few people still clinging on out there roleplaying but it was nothing like Feral Heart's early days. The L/J island lion roleplays were a rare sight now. N/Z used to be a huge hub of activity and hang out and that was dead.

To me Bonfire and Ficho were the last true surviving hubs of Feral Heart activity and even there I was seeing the changes occurring.

Truth is interests in the same old stale maps dies at some point after several years of no updates. The maps barely had room for imagination with the amount of dead space in them. We are trying to start fresh and give the maps a little more life and depth to help spur the imagination and interests again to fuel roleplays etc. We're also trying to provide something to look forward to in updates from a game that has long been abandoned and not updated yet alone fixed. Memories of old times will not be enough to keep an ever changing community alive and thriving. Memories are highly valued but the overall function and quality of the game, it's server, and community takes priority before sentimental value. The game will simply become nothing but a memory if users do not support changes that keep the game up and running hopefully for more years to come. We all have great memories of the old FH and that will never change... It's those memories of FH that make wanting to keep FH alive and thriving soo much more important. I do hope users can understand this. Change may hurt or feel weird at first but in due time things will eventually become the norm again as people find their places in the new world and pave the path to new memories.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: WolfQueen on July 11, 2016, 06:46:09 pm

Keep in mind that FH was an unfinished game for five years and has not had an official update since the beginning of 2012, until this recent refurbish. If nothing had gone wrong, then this update would have been done years ago.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: DarkLustyHumor on July 11, 2016, 10:48:21 pm

Quote from: ArcticGalaxy on July 09, 2016, 12:26:12 pm

Honestly, I'm getting really sick and tired of all of these people going around thinking spamming Red and trying to start a new "Hashtag Trend" just to get the old game back. That isn't going to work. Never will. This update is here to stay. I know everyone had good memories and favorite spots in the old update, but this is a chance to make new memories, to forge paths for new players. Nobody will even give this update a chance. They just automatically scream out that all of their memories are just gone.

This update was took years to actually get around to becoming public. Everyone was always complaining about how the FeralHeart was dying after Kovu left and no new updates were coming out and after certain "events" last Thanksgiving. Yes, the login page is a butt. But honestly, I would rather deal with that than personal information leaking out. Or better yet, the game getting shout down entirely, which the mods could have done a lot easier. But no, they choose to go through all of this to keep the game running. And now they have brought us this wonderful new update, and all people can do is complain. They finally get what they want....and they just throw it down and crush. it. Honestly now that it's been a month...I really don't want the old maps back. I love all of the new ones. I've found my favorite spots and I know this map like the back of my hand. I show others around even. If everyone could just be more understanding of that and ask for help, the wouldn't be having as many problems.

So basically people need to either suck it up and actual give this update a chance, or they need to find them a new game to play and stop trying to start stuff here. Rant over.

I agree, the people that keep trying to get the old game back are being childish. Not everyone wants the old game back for one thing, and we have gained a lot more users since it upgraded. People really need to understand that it's not something that's going to go away, and if they don't like it they can leave. Anyone that goes after Red is technically Cyberstalking which is illegal. I never thought I would have to post this but I think it's important now after everything I've seen. This is a law that I will be quoting that people on Feral Heart need to be aware of, for many reasons. (Parts of it have been removed due to adult content)

"Cyberstalking is the use of the Internet or other electronic means to stalk or harass an individual, a group, or an organization.[1] It may include false accusations, defamation, slander and libel. It may also include monitoring, identity theft, threats, vandalism, or gathering information that may be used to threaten or harass.

Cyberstalking is often accompanied by realtime or offline stalking.[2] Both are criminal offenses.[3] Both are motivated by a desire to control, intimidate or influence a victim.[4] A stalker may be an online stranger or a person whom the target knows. He may be anonymous and solicit involvement of other people online who do not even know the target.

Cyberstalking is a criminal offense under various state anti-stalking, slander and harassment laws. A conviction can result in a restraining order, probation, or criminal penalties against the assailant, including jail."

Ref: "Cyberstalking". Oxford University Press. Retrieved 2013-12-10.

I really hope people will realize that a game is a game, and bothering people about it is actually a criminal offense. Why risk being a criminal just for a FREE game?

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Kynvuu on July 12, 2016, 02:41:39 am

Quote from: DarkLustyHumor on July 11, 2016, 10:48:21 pm

People really need to understand that it's not something that's going to go away, and if they don't like it they can leave. Anyone that goes after Red is technically Cyberstalking

Aye. Let's also not forget how extremely difficult it is to be an admin of a game. I'm sure there are a few video game entrepreneurs out in this community as well, and as we know, managing an online game is not an easy feat. For someone to sit down and be an administrator to an MMO is a very painstaking task. Not only do they have to set aside time to maintain the game and the community, taking time out of their own lives, but they have to deal with all of the social stress of their players not being satisfied, etc. As Sura already stated in her previous post, you can't make everyone 100% happy and in agreement. But Red tried to get pretty darn close to that 100%, and in that process he allowed the game to eat into his own real life, and take time away from things that were important. As he explained to us, that was one of the reasons he decided to take his well deserved vacation.

For someone like Red to have that kind of dedication to sit down, spend hours upon hours making sure players are enjoying their experience with their game is quite the task on its own. But what's even more admirable is that he did it in such a selfless fashion. He did what was best for the game, even if it wasn't the best for him. And now, for players to go around bashing him for doing what he saw as right and fit, is totally unacceptable. Not only is it rude and selfish, but its uncalled for. Its apparent that the people going around making these videos either do not understand the kind of work, effort, and time that go into an online game, or they are simply not willing to be understanding, compromise, etc.

Title: Re: Prepare for the Youtube Rebellion
Post by: Skullfrost on July 12, 2016, 07:13:12 am

honestly, if someone wants the 'old FH' back, they can get off their butts and make it themselves. It shouldn't be too hard to just recreate the old maps as a map pack, remake podium to resemble the old one, replace the new markings with the old ones, etc and call it 'old FH'.

honestly, spamming an ex-staff member isn't gonna do anything. you want the old game back, you can make it yourself. don't have the skills? well too bad. commission someone.