Feral Heart
Game & Forum Discussion => Forum Discussion => Topic started by: LogicalNonsense101 on July 02, 2013, 04:33:52 am
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I can see where your coming from and to be honest I agree with you that the terms used in RP ad's should be different, though what would be better I honestly can't say.
When I first joined up and heard the terms literate and illiterate being used I was more that a little confused, after all how could an illiterate person RP at all if they can't read or write? And on that note, it makes all of us literate even if we RP with chat speak or U instead of you. I also find it confusing to figure out what 'literacy' I fall under and I'm sure other people have the same trouble.
From what I can figure out this is what people generally mean with their ads, feel free to correct me on these:
Literate: Anything from three whole sentences up, it can also mean that they use 'wolfspeak' (which I find even more confusing >.<)
Semi-Literate seems to be anytime from whole, proper sentences to things like -eats zebra-
Illiterate I don't understand at all as I've never been apart of a group labeled as such, I image they use text/chat speak or one to two word replies without proper sentences.
I seem to flounder between Semi-literate and literate but when joining a group its pretty hit and miss since everyone's definitions vary so greatly. Some better thought out terms could give potential role-players a better idea of what the group is like and could lead to less miss-labeling of groups in advertisements but the bottom line is would new terms even catch on at this stage?
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First off: I can agree with your statement of the ongoing confusion many online users have with the perplexing question of 'where do they fall under literacy terms and such...' It can ultimately end as the cause to hurt some innocent user's esteem if they join a group that can be a little overwhelming in vocabulary around a 10th grade level!
Secondly: Overall, people can sometimes not make themselves clear on what they are looking for when searching for members, another reason why I secludedly favor "RP Samples" so they can know before the act on who is trying to join the group, it keeps feelings from getting hurt by those who find it fun to bully someone and judge them by there amount of education. After all, they most likely do not know the user's grade level in school.
Third: Yes, you did get the basic definition of the "Latter of Literacy" as I like to call it. X3
And furthermore: I must agree with you 100% on the many varieties of descriptions on how literacy should be, trust me. People at colleage levels can stake the bar at a somewhat Shakespearean level of grammar, which most to none of the players online can achieve, unless you happen to want near perfection. :I By the way, thank you for commenting. I value your opinion greatly! :)
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I think these terms have really drawn a line between players, literates can sometimes be snobby and look down their nose at players that aren't as skilled as them. But then illiterates tend to be more open and will role play with any one.
But there aren't just two kinds of players in FH, what about the people like me who are in the middle? I can spell but I'm not a great role player? I have been removed from groups for not doing as well as the others.
I don't like these terms, because they don't mean what they actually mean when used in role play advertisements.
People can have whoever they want in their groups, they don't HAVE to give people a chance if they want someone better in their role plays, they just don't need to be snobs about it.
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You know, I agree with you. I mean, the naming of the people literate, semi-literate, and illiterate is quite kiddish. I know I used to be highly "illiterate", and, when I went to join other groups and stuff that were literate, they wouldn't let me join. I understand that you may want someone more literate to join, but, maybe some illiterate people should join, so they can become better roleplayers and make the world of FH better.
And, I think, instead of calling it literate, semi-literate, and illiterate.. Why don't we go by advanced..? I mean, some of the more advanced RPers tend to be what one would call.. Literate, but, it only makes sense to go by something else. Advanced roleplayers can be the ones who have RPed for longer, and, have more experience than others. Semi-advanced roleplayers can be the ones who have some experience in RPing, and then.. You can have your unadvanced RPers, being the ones who have the lesser experience, but, that doesn't put them out from the rest.
And, if you were kind enough to, you could always help people become more advanced in their RP skills. I mean, that's half of the problem. No one is helping our 'illiterate' Rpers, and, that's why many of the RPs are discriminating against them. I say, we help them out. Let a few into a higher RP and help them out. That's what someone who was kind enough did for me, and it ended up helping my RP skills a bunch.
I just tossed out ideas, and went of topic, in a way.. But, we should probably get rid of the terms 'literate' and 'semi-literate' and then 'illiterate'. I mean, if we're RPers, we obviously know how to read and write.. Okay, maybe type, but, you get the point. We need a different term for this, because it's pretty bogus that we're using a incorrect term for something.
Just my opinion!
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Good for you for standing up for yourself as well as for the others. c: I agree with you 100% with your reasonings. I even dealt with the situation a few days ago where my friend was asking me, "Have you ever thought what literacy actually means in Feralheart?" It took a while for me, but my parents said that there was only one true definition to it, and that is what you have showed us Logical.
I have an understanding that most users who use the term "literate" or "illiterate" think that they mean something truly different when in-game. Such as:
Literate: Being able to use correct grammar as well as using para-style roleplaying. Lacks using incorrect terms as well as false spelling, and always posting in 3rd Person Limited.
Semi-Literate: Being able to use grammar, may have some mistakes. Para-style roleplaying gets cut down, and partially sleazy in structure.
Illiterate: Always using wrong terms and false spelling, making posts that don't make sense often. Uses partial txt speak, as well as an abundance of action symbols (*), (-),(~).
This is how I picture their definition in-game, as well as others perhaps. But reading the opinions listed before me made me realize that maybe it would be time to use a different term, as to not offend fellow floofs. As what Skaara has said, everyone in the game has some sense of literacy, whether it be using txt speak all the time, or wolf speak. Not everyone is perfect, so cut them some slack by cutting loose the term "literacy".
When I first joined Feralheart a year ago, I was one of those who roleplayers using the action (-) symbols as well as one sentenced posts... I checked up with a group I wanted to join, and they asked me for an RP sample, so I gave them one. A few minutes later, they said that until I know how to roleplay the correct way, I will not be accepted. They also said that when I learn how to post, I could ask to join again.
I can tell you how depressed I got, or embarrassed for my actions. I didn't even respond to them. See what things like that can do? I'd hate for the same to happen to fellow floofs, to be turned down from a group and being called an "illiterate".
At least players are putting an effort into what they post, and that is good enough ey? Why not help them become the better RPers you want them to be? I think it is time for a new word... Words or phrases such as:
To replace the term Literate:
Grammatically correct
ie. [insert RPG name here], a long term, mapless, grammatically correct styled group open and accepting.
Advanced
ie. [insert RPG name here], a long term, sited, and mapless group using advanced styled roleplaying, open and accepting.
To replace the term Semi-Literate:
Neutral
ie. [insert RPG name here], a long term, mapless, soon-to-be-sited, neutral styled group open and accepting.
Loose
ie. [insert RPG name here], a long term, mapped, sited group accepting loose styled roleplaying.
To replace the term Illiterate:
Grammatically Incorrect
ie. He / She is being grammatically incorrect when typing.
That is all I have to offer. I know there may be more words or phrases to use to replace "literate" and "illiterate". But these are my only thoughts as of now. Great work for starting a discussion about this, LogicalNonsense. I know you could make a difference for the well-being of fellow floofs who have the trouble being called "illiterates". c:
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It's an easier word to describe a RolePlay style, simple as that. Except that most styles are different from the actual definition of Literate, so it can get pretty confusing. Especially now with the removal of general chat, it takes quite a bit of chat to actually describe a group's RP style, such as 'Grammatically correct and literate RP posts, without text speak.' All of that could just be placed as Literate in an advertisement, and better explained to group members once they join/whisper/or confront the group.
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Again, thank you all for you opinions on this advancing problem, and for you .exe for your dedication to conjure up more appropriate terms. I at first thought I was the only one who believed this was wrong, thank you all for providing your bold opinions.
Sorry this is so short, I just generally want to appreciate all of your responses. :)
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In my opinion, I do not like to use the term "literate" to describe an role-play style, person, or group. Technically, if you can read, write, and know what is coming out of your mouth or put on paper, then, literacy is yours. I role-play out of Feral Heart as well, and if I went around on other platforms advertising a "literate role-play only," people would most likely look at me like an idiot.
And I agree with Exe to use "advanced, neutral," I believe that is far better to say than "literate" or "illiterate." Also, in a way, I think it's rude to call someone "illiterate" or judge them based on the terminology they may use. Though some people may have a high vocabulary, it gives no right for insulting another person for their intelligence. More likely, this would be a factor of why some people portray advanced role-players as such. Instead, why not give constructive criticism and allow the person a chance to improve, if they like.
Referring to Nathan, you seem to be right. Most advanced people can be skeptical and it shouldn't be that way. It leaves a closed atmosphere and in a sense, isolates the advanced players from the new and current players. We are all here to rp with one another, learn, create, and meet new friends. Above all, have fun.
Why not share the fun while helping each other along?
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You want honesty? Well honestly... I agree with what you're thinking here. Here's what I think. It's hard for me to decide whether the term "literate" is the right word to describe the way someone types out a roleplay post. After reading those definitions, I can see where people come up with labling others as being "literate" or "illiterate". As I've always said before, illiterate people wouldn't even be playing this game, since illiteracy has to do with people not being able to read, write, or type. But often times people use those terms to describe a person's style of roleplaying, as the others above said. I DON'T like to lable people as being "literate" or "illiterate" really. As long as I can understand what they are typing, I won't turn them down in a roleplay.
What I often times don't understand is how people would lable someone illiterate for posting such short roleplay posts. They call them illiterate even if the person used proper punctuations, grammar, spelling, etc. That's when I think the term "illiterate" is being misused and abused.
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It should go something more like this.
Good at role playing=Experienced.
Sort of good a role play=Semi-Experienced.
Not too good at role play=Cute at role play.
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For me, It's easier to say lit, semi-lit, and non-lit than advanced, neutral, and grammatically incorrect.
I've always been lit so it's never really bother me before. To some, it might irritate them, but I've come to think of lit as how good I am at RP in the GAME rather than how I am in real life.
Literate, semi literate, and illiterate are easy to understand and type. They both have the word "literate in them so it's kind of like a ladder of RP, making it easier to understand for younger payers. Plus in typing ads, which we have to do repeatedly, you can use the short forms lit, semi-lit, and non-lit, and people will still understand easily.
As for other words, I suggest Amateur, Intermediate, and Advanced. However, those are also long words and Short forms are still hard to understand.
So, I still think literate is the better, easier term to use.
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Although it's incorrect, it's what FH is used to. It would be very hard to change it so that everyone used it, and I'm not sure what the reaction would be if you started using completely different phrases. I do think it'd be better if other terms were used, but even so, saying you're "Advanced" or "Amateur" can still lead to people acting like snobs and excluding people because "they know what they're doing" or some other ridiculous excuse.
Either way, I think we may as well just leave it as it is. Some games have weird lingo like that.
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Well, I believe the terms are used loosely when referring to their ability to type. For a long while people have been using literate, semi-literate, and illiterate to describe the quality of their RPs typing skills.
I understand the terms are being used wrong, but it's been going on for so long it'd be weird for it to change.
In all honesty, I think it is fine how it is, even if it is being used wrong. FH has kind of given it a different meaning for a different context, which is indeed weird. It's just been that way for a while, and it's easier to say than anything else. To just say lit, semi-lit, and unlit is pretty simple.
It has just sort of grown on us, ya'know. As others have mentioned, using some terms would lead to people excluding others, and may end in conflict. Because yes, some people will get angry over little things like that.
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It would be impossible to change it, even though I think it should really be changed since nobody likes being called illiterate.
I had this happen to me.
*Types out a RP sample*
<Recruiter> Sorry you're too illiterate.
<Me> But I didn't spell anything wrong.
<Recruiter> Yeah but it's not literate enough for us.
<Me> Why?
<Recrruiter> It's too short and the grammar isn't literate.
<Me> *Poker face* Ok thanks anyway...
But really what they mean is it's too short and I didn't use fancy words or wolf speak.
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I do use the words 'literate', and such, while advertising, but I don't label someone as such. I would never purposely try to put someone down and call them 'illiterate'.
When I was younger I used to be 'illiterate', sure. Only using the simpleminded words that children know, not capitalizing words at the beginning of sentences, using the actions symbols '-', '*', and '~'.
Now, what really irritates me, is what happened to me when I tried to join a simple role-play which was advertised as 'literate or semi-literate', I sent my role-play sample and I was flatly rejected for, apparently, being too 'literate'. Then they asked me if I usually role-played like that, and I said "Of course, otherwise I wouldn't have sent the sample in that format."
It also happened for being too 'illiterate' when I was younger. After being called 'illiterate' I stopped playing for a week, feeling too embarrassed to play, and after being called too 'literate', it was actually kind of funny if you ask me, I walked up to the other player's character and went "Okay, then. I guess that makes one less member of your pack. Unless you want me to turn into a '-hits no miss-' kind of person." They just simply ignored me, since I was raging a little.
-Shrug- But, whatever.
Y'know the groups that say 'in need of males/females/members', then why stick a literacy tag on the group? If you need more members of opposite sex, then why not ask someone of the specific sex which is 'over-accepted' to change, or something besides trying to get more members of the opposite sex which is needed, which you might get the 'over-accepted' sex. (Sorry if I confused anyone, Wolfie's just trying to make some logic out of it. ^^')
Another thing that irritates me with literacy tags is when someone thinks that a specific 'literacy range' has to have a post limit. If it's not listed in the advertising, most of the members probably won't think about posting a huge role-play sample if it's not demanded, I know I most likely wouldn't.
If a person who is 'literate' is averaged to post about three long passages, then I'm apparently in the 'semi-literate' range. I really only average out to post a simple few paragraphs, possibly three sentences at the least, which is how some people tag 'semi-literate' people. -Shrug-
Well, if I'm too 'literate' for that one role-play, then how would I qualify for the 'semi-literate' range? I've no clue, really. -Shrug-
~Wolfie
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I think we should stop using literate and illiterate I mean really I rarely ever use literate to describe my RPs here's a little ad I've created for a fake Group so you can see how I Advertise: Moonshine pack open and accepting Whisper silverwolf120 for more info. They're short because I usually use movies. Why do we use literate anyways why not use something...kinder *walks off topic quickly* What's wolf speak? *Walks back onto the topic* so there you have my opinion.
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As many of you have said I don't think the labels will change either. They are widely used and mostly understood in game now coming out with new things such as 'advanced' or 'intermediate' I don't think would catch on. I also think the advanced, intermediate and novice terms can be confusing too as I'm not a novice however I can RP like one.
In the end the only way to find out how another posts is to start role-playing with them. I could be 'literate' but I tend to post shorter 1-3 sentience posts to keep the flow going, although no matter how long the post is when it comes to wolfspeak it takes me twice as long to figure out. Half of the words used aren't actual words to be found in a dictionary and the other half can be misused completely. Just because you say 'ears' instead of 'auds' doesn't make you illiterate.
Sorry that last part was a bit of a rant huh? Wolfspeak just rubs me the wrong way.
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Just because you say 'ears' instead of 'auds' doesn't make you illiterate.
There are a few groups around now I've noticed who call themselves 'Elite' Role-players, because they think they are the most literate things on the face of the planet using wolf-speak, which at most is a mockery and brutal murder of the English language and not really literate at all considering they don't really use dictionary correct terms for anything.
As for everything else I never really understood the entire 'Literacy' thing as thats what our 'English' lessons in school were called, Literacy Lessons, where you went to learn to reading and writing.
If anything the labels for RP would better suit as Beginner, Intermediate and Experienced. Or if you want to run it like most Consol games. Easy, Medium and Hard. or even Learners and Learned
I know for a fact when I first picked up RP years ago on a few forum sites, I had the worst spelling and only did the three words in Astrix *jus lik dis* for ages. But Slowly I improved, the more I role-played with advanced and intermediate (My god they had so much patience with me looking back) the more I started to 'mimic' how they wrote, or picked up my spelling and writing skills from them.
I think a large problem is the outright refusal a lot of intermediate to advanced have with RPing with anyone under their level, it is rather snobbish in some aspects, if you lump all the neanderthals in to gather and refuse to even try to RP with them, no one is going to improve and evolve, they are just going to sit and stew in their 'illiteracy' forever.
RP is something you have to learn as you do it, you cant just read a book and suddenly RP like a Pro, you have to work at getting there.
Whoops I appear to have done a bit of a rant.
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I agree with you, Taizer, on the terms of "elites" and the subject of "lower level" role-players. I can recall a few times where I would role-play locally for fun and someone would whisper me asking to join in. I would readily accept them, but they were often afraid to ask from their current level. After a few hours, we both had a fun session.
A few days later, when I stared role-play with the same person, they seemed to have picked up my terminology and style. The feel of having inspired a person like that is a wonderful feeling. I wish that more experienced role-players would take from this and have patience with other people who aren't to their level. Helping others is always a good accomplishment. We all had to learn somewhere from someone.
Now, what would have happened if I labeled the person as "illiterate?" I have no right to do that. I don't know if the person has a disability, speaks another language, has self-esteem issues, or so on.