Feral Heart

Game & Forum Discussion => Game Discussion => Topic started by: peete on January 07, 2014, 03:01:35 am

Title: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: peete on January 07, 2014, 03:01:35 am
Has anyone else realized that some players in Feral Heart are like...younger kids? I just checked the forums rules and it says (and I quote), "This is a game aimed for kids 13+".... Considering I've seen 9 year olds playing this game, I have a friend online who is 11, and I saw a YouTube channel of a little girl playing, I was just wondering...

Why are there so many young people in FH? I was just curious because there is no way I'm seeing a bunch of players character names that aren't capitalized, or spelling words completely wrong (and then everyone talking about how "illiterate" they are)... Not that they're all like that I mean, but the ones who are make it kind of obvious in my mind ._.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: DevXVI on January 07, 2014, 03:12:55 am
I see what you mean, but many different aged people log on to the game. It is "aimed" at 13+. But people join any-ways. Since they are younger, they are bound to be not as experienced with being literate, etc... Anyways, to sum it up, I am guessing it is only ''aimed at 13+'', ''not has to be 13+.''
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: LordSuragaha on January 07, 2014, 04:15:35 am
Well it's kind of hard to enforce a rule like that since people can pretty much lie about their age to register here and many other places. It's not like we can ask for ID here so it's impossible for us to really cut down on the number of young kids that might join. In all honesty though the age restriction I believe is more of a warning and a statement to parents of under age kids coming on and using this game but a also because there are some age restrictions for certain countries with sites like this one. If the game is stated to be for 13+ and some young kid comes on here and by some chance reads something inappropriate for their age we warned them so it's not like parents can say "but my child etc etc"... There's a rule written. If you decide to break it do it at your own expense. While we do try to keep the conversations and behavior as clean as possible on here there will always be those who think breaking rules is cool and pose a hazard to innocent & impressionable young minds.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Feareh on January 07, 2014, 07:37:27 am
 No place on the internet is really a "no child zone" since really kids can lie about there age to get access to any account. Mods can only do so much for the game when parents are letting 9 year olds freely go onto the internet without any supervision. The best things that staff can do to at least mellow out these odds are to just make things as friendly as possible so at least the majority of the people are happy.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: _Rache_ on January 07, 2014, 09:01:48 am
So am I in trouble then? I'm 12. Not to mention when I read the rules before joining two years ago, there was no rule about age. e.e and despite my age, I am a literate roleplayer.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: ~Stargazer~ on January 07, 2014, 03:22:42 pm
I am younger than the age limit says, but like Feareh said, it's impossible to have a no child zone on the interwebz. I suppose it really depends on whether this young induvisual is comfortable seeing words like "crap" or "sexy/smexy". It's between them and their parents, really.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: _Rache_ on January 07, 2014, 03:31:46 pm
Alright. -innocently flails hands up- XD
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Lady_Alizarin on January 07, 2014, 10:30:59 pm
Like the others have said, the whole thing about this game being 13+ is a recommendation and not a requirement. Even if this website and game is reccomended and intended for people 13 and older, there will always be the youngins who will be drawn to play a game that involves animals that they would want to join in on the fun too.

You could say this site is like a PG-13 movie. You can expect to see players who are slightly younger in the audience. I've been to movie theaters to see movies that were rated PG-13... and for good reasons too. In the audience were some kids that were as young as 6. The only reason they got into a PG-13 movie was because they had their parents there with them. With some of the movies we were watching, it made me wonder what the parents were thinking to bring their 6 or 7 year old to come see a movie that had content unsutable for kids their age. "Nice way to traumatize you kid, woman..." is what I want to say, but I can't tell people how to raise their kids.

Getting back on subject now... Feareh stated a good point when she said that no place on the internet is really a "no child zone". And she's right. Kids can lie about their age to get onto any site they want to. Nobody can really stop a child from logging onto a porn site, violent shooting game site, or any other adult site, now can they? The internet is a dangerous place for kids. The only people who can do anything about what their kids do online are the parents. Parental controls and website blocking is one alternative parents try, but even then Junior can go to his little buddy's house to view sites Mommy and Daddy restricted in their house internet server. Or there are some parents that just don't give a rats behind about what their kids get into or do online. It's the sad truth...

So when it comes to enforcing an age limit on FH, or any other site, there's really nothing anyone can do to stop little children under 13 from logging on or becoming members. Besides, there are some children under 13 who have proved themselves to be good members of the Feral Heart community. I would know, because I have some roleplaying friends who are pre-teens and they behave just fine. And then there are others who really have no business here, since they've proved to be nothing but trouble.

So that's all I have to say about the subject.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Kerriki on January 08, 2014, 12:02:43 am
What bugs me most about kids entering the game is that there, of course, is always going to be that rule breaker who could care less about innocent little kids' minds. Obviously, those trolls all seem to gather up at once place, and we all know that as Bonfire. And that's where most little kids go to because (this is what I think, it may not be true) they're probably still learning how to spell etc so Bonfire is probably the only place they can rp without being called an illiterate n00b.

Back on topic, with all these trolls entering Bonfire, it really bothers me when people behave inappropriately and/or cuss. I mean, the youngest age I've ever seen on FH is six; yes, six. That's either a kindergartener or a first grader. I'm sure we can all agree when I say that a first grader doesn't need to know every swear word out there, nor do they need to know what sex/rape is.

Being over the age limit, I already know about these things and it doesn't bother me much at all. Sometimes I hang around Bonfire just to "patrol" and/or stalk neons just because I know that kids don't need to know these things, being the considerate person I am. (Or at least that's what my real-life friends say. xD) Sometimes I might see someone say sh!t, or something along those lines. Not anything too bad, but usually I'll whisper these people and say something like, "Please be careful with what you say. There are elementary school kids who play this game." More often then not I get a response like, "this game is for people at least 13 years old, u noob. i dont even care about little kids." After that I block the person (just it case it ends up causing more trouble), but I always end up thinking, "there is no age limit on the internet. Kids can lie."
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Lady_Alizarin on January 08, 2014, 12:13:36 am
I'm sure we can all agree when I say that a first grader doesn't need to know every swear word out there, nor do they need to know what sex/rape is.

 Sometimes I might see someone say sh!t, or something along those lines. Not anything too bad, but usually I'll whisper these people and say something like, "Please be careful with what you say. There are elementary school kids who play this game." More often then not I get a response like, "this game is for people at least 13 years old, u noob. i dont even care about little kids." After that I block the person (just it case it ends up causing more trouble)

When it comes to people like that, there really is no point in talking to them about the rules. They clearly have no respect for the rules, for the younger players, or the people who try to warn them about watching what they say. I've tried reminding someone in game once, but they pretty much told me, "You're not the boss of me" kind of attitude. So I took a bunch of screenshots of their bad language behavior, sent the screenshots to a mod, and never heard from that rule-breaker ever again. So instead of wasting your time trying to lecture these rule-breakers about the game rules and the fact of little kids playing the game, it would be easier to take screenshots and send them to a moderator.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Kerriki on January 09, 2014, 12:59:07 am
I'm sure we can all agree when I say that a first grader doesn't need to know every swear word out there, nor do they need to know what sex/rape is.

 Sometimes I might see someone say sh!t, or something along those lines. Not anything too bad, but usually I'll whisper these people and say something like, "Please be careful with what you say. There are elementary school kids who play this game." More often then not I get a response like, "this game is for people at least 13 years old, u noob. i dont even care about little kids." After that I block the person (just it case it ends up causing more trouble)

When it comes to people like that, there really is no point in talking to them about the rules. They clearly have no respect for the rules, for the younger players, or the people who try to warn them about watching what they say. I've tried reminding someone in game once, but they pretty much told me, "You're not the boss of me" kind of attitude. So I took a bunch of screenshots of their bad language behavior, sent the screenshots to a mod, and never heard from that rule-breaker ever again. So instead of wasting your time trying to lecture these rule-breakers about the game rules and the fact of little kids playing the game, it would be easier to take screenshots and send them to a moderator.
Yes, I know. I normally don't have the patience for those kinds of people, so I simply block and report.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: WolfQueen on January 09, 2014, 04:29:42 am
Hence of me being on here since I was like 11 and never getting in trouble about it, this game is for all ages. Just being directed at a certain age doesn't mean it's only for that age. Like Cartoon Network, it's aimed for young boys at the age of 7-12 (even though the cartoons on there got a little...vulgar than the cartoons years ago), but even young adults (18-23) watch it. And like the other guys are saying, nothing on the internet is kid-free. I know a boy at the age of 10 that is on deviantART. I'm hesitant about reporting him because he's my friend's best friend and I don't want her to be upset about it, even though he's barely on anyways.

Hell, I have had an account on dA when I was 10. Pathetic me thought I could get away with it easily, and now I know that's a bad choice to make.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: _Rache_ on January 09, 2014, 04:55:21 am
I am not liking this negativity here about those under 13. Have you know I have been here since I was 10(12 currently),and I am not a troll, I despise bonfire at lots of the time, and I am a Literate-Advanced roleplayer. I can make maps, presets and I know how to download them, not to mention I can download items, textures and markings. I'm sorry but I just don't like the negativity. Yes, many younger players are like some of you describe, but, is that a reason to put that label on every younger player?
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: WolfQueen on January 09, 2014, 04:56:37 am
...Noone is really age-shamming around here lol.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Tripwire on January 09, 2014, 08:35:00 am
While I think that younger kids should have parent permission to play, I in no way believe that they are less literate than our older crowd. I know of atleast one 17 year old boy who power plays and is more of a nuisance than any 13 year old could ever be. :3
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: HollowWolf on January 09, 2014, 09:18:29 am
I have actually been discusing this in calls with Red and a few others. This game is based around 13+ only because in certain countries, you must be 13 and up to join forums on the internet. But as Sura said, people tend to lie about their ages, which is not something that would be acceptable in those few countries. This subject has been brought up alot in-game on FH. No matter what we do, kids will be kids, and being a kid, you are going to be inapropriate at times. And if they are caught, it will be dealt with. So, it is SUPPOSED to be 13+, but anyone can play the game as long as they behave.

And as Tripwire said, youngins can be more mature than older teenagersm but i depends on the person.

Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Lady_Alizarin on January 09, 2014, 09:46:10 pm
I am not liking this negativity here about those under 13. Have you know I have been here since I was 10(12 currently),and I am not a troll, I despise bonfire at lots of the time, and I am a Literate-Advanced roleplayer. I can make maps, presets and I know how to download them, not to mention I can download items, textures and markings. I'm sorry but I just don't like the negativity. Yes, many younger players are like some of you describe, but, is that a reason to put that label on every younger player?

Where exactly do you see people on this thread labling EVERYONE under the age of 13 in a negative way? Where? I don't anyone saying that ALL kids under 13 are "trolls" or "illiterate" and so on. Some have said that many people under 13 do some naughty things in the game, but that doesn't mean that ALL of them do it. Like I said before, there are some kids under 13 in this community who can behave themselves in a good way and are outstanding, helpful members. If what you say about yourself is true, then you are one of those good, helpful members in the community and shouldn't really let lables make you think otherwise. It's unfortunate that a majority of the kids in your age group aren't as mature as you are, but that's just them. It really just depends on the person, like others have said.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: FinalJump on January 10, 2014, 06:05:21 am
I feel the need to speak up here.

The existence of the 13+ rule stems from COPPA law, as seen here:

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm (http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm)

The law is in existence in the interest of those younger than 13 and while that doesn't mean they're lesser than anybody over 13, it does mean they are legally protected. Being such, as far as I'm aware, it's a crime to knowingly harbor them on a site such as this or a game such as Feral Heart. And it's difficult to stem the tide of them rolling in if nothing is ever done about it, as seen on this very thread. You're essentially saying hey come here, we accept you too.

And it's wrong.

To back this up, you need to understand the reason COPPA exists. It isn't saying that mature underaged users don't exist. It's saying either the majority is vulnerable. Vulnerable? Yes, they are. Children are typically less wise to the realities, and sometimes give personal information such as addresses, phone numbers, and other details of their lives that they legally should not do, to strangers or people they 'assume' they can trust.

This allows child predators a way of contacting them.

Need I remind you all that a game such as this is perfect for a predator to do their dirty work? So turning a blind eye toward underaged users is essentially saying, hey, if you got assaulted due to telling somebody information, it's on you.

If the game is stated to be for 13+ and some young kid comes on here and by some chance reads something inappropriate for their age we warned them so it's not like parents can say "but my child etc etc"... There's a rule written. If you decide to break it do it at your own expense.

Well tough luck kids, nobody here cares to do more than bare minimum to protect you.

That's just wrong.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: peete on January 10, 2014, 11:45:26 pm
I feel the need to speak up here.

The existence of the 13+ rule stems from COPPA law, as seen here:

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm (http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm)

The law is in existence in the interest of those younger than 13 and while that doesn't mean they're lesser than anybody over 13, it does mean they are legally protected. Being such, as far as I'm aware, it's a crime to knowingly harbor them on a site such as this or a game such as Feral Heart. And it's difficult to stem the tide of them rolling in if nothing is ever done about it, as seen on this very thread. You're essentially saying hey come here, we accept you too.

And it's wrong.

To back this up, you need to understand the reason COPPA exists. It isn't saying that mature underaged users don't exist. It's saying either the majority is vulnerable. Vulnerable? Yes, they are. Children are typically less wise to the realities, and sometimes give personal information such as addresses, phone numbers, and other details of their lives that they legally should not do, to strangers or people they 'assume' they can trust.

This allows child predators a way of contacting them.

Need I remind you all that a game such as this is perfect for a predator to do their dirty work? So turning a blind eye toward underaged users is essentially saying, hey, if you got assaulted due to telling somebody information, it's on you.

If the game is stated to be for 13+ and some young kid comes on here and by some chance reads something inappropriate for their age we warned them so it's not like parents can say "but my child etc etc"... There's a rule written. If you decide to break it do it at your own expense.

Well tough luck kids, nobody here cares to do more than bare minimum to protect you.

That's just wrong.

I don't really understand...what you're trying to say is that if the child does something that is dangerous online and something happens to them, it's their fault no matter the case?

But anyway... like most of you all are saying it really depends on the person. I had my cousin play FH (he's 12) and I ended up changing the password to his account because he almost got himself in trouble MULTIPLE times. Now if that's the case, why are there people hating and/or leaving FH because of "illiterates"? NOT saying that all little kids are terrible typists, but I know that most kids don't learn legit typing skills until they get a bit older or something like that. (Tried not to go off topic, but it seemed like part of the situation...)
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: FinalJump on January 11, 2014, 12:57:37 am
You've misinterpreted me entirely. Understandably but no, that's not what I was trying to say.

The fault would rely on the factors specific to the case; if a child is being irresponsible, that's their fault, but no victim is guilty of being victimized (Unless something is direly wrong with the situation and somebody forced another to victimize them, which is more possible than one would like to think--but children generally aren't as dirty as that. That's more of a gross adult trickery.). If that makes sense.

No, I was instead pointing out the opposite of it--that LordSura seemed to indicate that by their useage of dismissive wording. They seemed to say 'hey, if something bad happens to a kid lol we warned them so' and that seems irresponsible to me. Of course, this is constructive opinion and I'm probably coming off too condescending as always but my intentions are less arrogant and more genuinely concerned over the younger users in Feral Heart. There's a lot of them, you know. They need to be managed properly or someday, somebody is going to get severely hurt irl as consequence of mishandling the duties moderators are in existence to take on.

As for those with lesser literative skill, it's a sort of hit and miss thing in every roleplaying community. Honestly I recommend they read some good books before trying to write their own stories--gain a better foundation for the expression of language. Language is an art, and the most I can say of most users is... they're doodling.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Feareh on January 11, 2014, 01:28:12 am
 You seem to be missing something that is important here. not everything in the internet is protected by child trickery of lying about there age to get into a place. As that law may be stated when signing up in the Feral Heart site there are terms and limits that a user must agree on when registering. Whether the child comes to a unsupervised internet game without any supervision is not the mods fault but it is parents. the best thing the mods and staff can do is to help and fix the problems that are presented and to make things mellow.

mind you should also read there legal thread that was posted a long time ago
http://feral-heart.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=44 (http://feral-heart.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=44)



Need I remind you all that a game such as this is perfect for a predator to do their dirty work? So turning a blind eye toward underaged users is essentially saying, hey, if you got assaulted due to telling somebody information, it's on you.


That's just wrong.[/color]
As some have stated, the site is very strict in protecting a persons personal information and regardless of that site you visit children will go to it regardless of warnings. Such as facebook or myspace at the time.
FH had stated that you must be at a certain age to play this game so don't say that it was never implicated to begin with. But as a true fact, the internet is a tricky think to where its the one place where you cant ask for ID.

Quote
As for those with lesser literative skill, it's a sort of hit and miss thing in every roleplaying community. Honestly I recommend they read some good books before trying to write their own stories--gain a better foundation for the expression of language. Language is an art, and the most I can say of most users is... they're doodling.
Please do not insult some users based of there literative skills, please be mindful of who your audience is. As I too like to see creativity in people I do love all types of art. If people want to start out in FH and make there own RP with their choice let them.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: LordSuragaha on January 11, 2014, 01:29:29 am

No, I was instead pointing out the opposite of it--that LordSura seemed to indicate that by their useage of dismissive wording. They seemed to say 'hey, if something bad happens to a kid lol we warned them so' and that seems irresponsible to me.

That is incorrect but that is also your interpretation of what I said. It is typical that some individuals like to try and draw some kind of "sarcasm" or "immaturity" in my responses or warp my words to make it seem like I was irresponsible but I was quite serious about what I said. I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth or mixing what I said in a very straight forward way to fit some kind of twisted point they want to make.

If you would stop racing to conclusions or drawing assumptions about my choice of words or my tone you'd realize that I was explaing that we can try our best to make sure that everyone is informed of the age registriction and keep the game safe but there is little that we can do to actually keep these younger users off the game. We can't check their IDs so we don't really know people's real ages here. We put the restriction up because yes different countries have different laws and we respect that but also it is a precaution since we know we really can't block these kids from joining its so that they and their parents know we did our part in warning them. They can't say we aren't trying. We're doing what we can to keep this community safe but if we can't really always catch the rule breakers and keep out the young kids where does that leave us?

My response was to explain the point that by us having the age restriction there they know we are aware and they should be aware of what's going on so don't try to push off that we are irresponsible if there really isn't much we can do to keep the kids off. The best we can do is if the kids keep coming we can keep struggling to keep the game as safe as possible for them.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Nowe on January 11, 2014, 01:36:06 am
Literally people admit their true age daily on the forum, and still login the follow days, weeks, and months I wouldn't call that proper age handling.


Sure the forum can protect ones identity, but will that stop a child from posting their address, number, and other personal information in-game? no it will not. The forum may be secure in-game is not.  Whats stopping a child from telling someone who has "Gained their trust" information? Should the child have learned thats not safe yes. Do all children know its not safe? No. Will all children listen to their parents? No.

Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: shusuke on January 11, 2014, 01:52:57 am
It's not that hard to keep an eye on players who are underage.

They may lie, but there are those that admit it. All one has to do is disable their accounts until they are of legal age to be on the site or use the service according to COPPA.

It's like drinking age. There's a limit set there for your own safety. COPPA is the same thing but is set up to protect children from potential threats on the internet, such as sexual predators etc etc.

You can't catch ALL of them, but the ones that you DO catch, you should hit hard and fast. It may seem unfair but it's one of those things where it's done with the best intentions at heart.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: FinalJump on January 11, 2014, 01:54:37 am
I did not insult anybody, but that said, people are free to feel in what way they will about my words. I said I recommend a book. I didn't base it on nationality, age, or any discriminatory factors whatsoever. Even I read a book when I find my wording lacking so it's merely passive advice. Some people don't accept even that of course, and I'm not about to shove any of it upon them. I've no need to be so rude. Don't make it sound like I attacked somebody.

Also, I never said it should be immediately known by some holy power the age of the users. Obviously I wouldn't be so far-fetched. No, I mean to say you should handle those users who openly state being younger than the required age as is legal of you to do. Willingly harboring those younger than the 13+ age limit is a criminal offense, and I didn't write the law, it isn't me at all the point should be argued with. It's rather misguided to even try. I'm saying, ban all users you see openly stating being younger than 13 until their 13th birthday or approximate time frame they would achieve that, and investigate all claims of knowing so-and-so who is underaged. Better safe than sorry. Keyword, safe. Not for just you, but for the community as a whole. Take your reasons from either side of the fence and feel free to, but law is law and this is international.

If you need more manpower to effectively moderate your community, get more mods. It's what they're for, much like your normal police officers.

You're handing me an awful lot of excuses as to why you can't abide by law, and I want to flatly say I never stated for the staff to be perfect. Again, if you expect me to be reasonable, please understand that I am indeed being reasonable. Perfection is a silly notion.

What isn't, is for me to direct your attention to what Nowe posted. You literally saw people admit to knowing or being 12 or younger on this very thread. What have you done about it? Don't entertain me with the answer, entertain your community/those who're watching this thread. What do you want them to see?

Staff who is more quick to defend themselves or staff that gets things done?

What opinion do you want to give--the impression, you want your community to have of you? Granted, you could very well not care and that is a viable option but then you wouldn't be a good option for the public relations side of staffing. Not the worst though, definitely not the worst.

Edit - Shusuke has voiced an opinion similar to mine. c8
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: WolfQueen on January 11, 2014, 01:59:05 am
I feel the need to speak up here.

The existence of the 13+ rule stems from COPPA law, as seen here:

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm (http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm)

The law is in existence in the interest of those younger than 13 and while that doesn't mean they're lesser than anybody over 13, it does mean they are legally protected. Being such, as far as I'm aware, it's a crime to knowingly harbor them on a site such as this or a game such as Feral Heart. And it's difficult to stem the tide of them rolling in if nothing is ever done about it, as seen on this very thread. You're essentially saying hey come here, we accept you too.

And it's wrong.

To back this up, you need to understand the reason COPPA exists. It isn't saying that mature underaged users don't exist. It's saying either the majority is vulnerable. Vulnerable? Yes, they are. Children are typically less wise to the realities, and sometimes give personal information such as addresses, phone numbers, and other details of their lives that they legally should not do, to strangers or people they 'assume' they can trust.

This allows child predators a way of contacting them.

Need I remind you all that a game such as this is perfect for a predator to do their dirty work? So turning a blind eye toward underaged users is essentially saying, hey, if you got assaulted due to telling somebody information, it's on you.

If the game is stated to be for 13+ and some young kid comes on here and by some chance reads something inappropriate for their age we warned them so it's not like parents can say "but my child etc etc"... There's a rule written. If you decide to break it do it at your own expense.

Well tough luck kids, nobody here cares to do more than bare minimum to protect you.

That's just wrong.
This is what concerns me about children under 13 on this site, the COPPA law. Since this game doesn't have some thing like Club Penguin or Neopets has that allows children 12- on the game, I wonder if children at that age range is even allowed on FH in any case; if FH is breaking the law.

Well, I've been on this game since I was 11, so me arguing about children on this game more further would make me pretty much a hypocrite. I totally agree with you Final Jump, anyways.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Lady_Alizarin on January 11, 2014, 04:28:40 am
If you need more manpower to effectively moderate your community, get more mods. It's what they're for, much like your normal police officers.

You're handing me an awful lot of excuses as to why you can't abide by law, and I want to flatly say I never stated for the staff to be perfect. Again, if you expect me to be reasonable, please understand that I am indeed being reasonable. Perfection is a silly notion.

What isn't, is for me to direct your attention to what Nowe posted. You literally saw people admit to knowing or being 12 or younger on this very thread. What have you done about it? Don't entertain me with the answer, entertain your community/those who're watching this thread. What do you want them to see?

Staff who is more quick to defend themselves or staff that gets things done?

What opinion do you want to give--the impression, you want your community to have of you? Granted, you could very well not care and that is a viable option but then you wouldn't be a good option for the public relations side of staffing. Not the worst though, definitely not the worst.

Edit - Shusuke has voiced an opinion similar to mine. c8


What are you, a lawyer or something?

Getting more staff members is better said than done. When it comes to a sight like this, not just anybody can become a moderator. There are requirements, qualifications and standards to meet in order to become a moderator of FH. The current staff don't want to promote someone to hold such responsiblities and powers to the wrong people.

Back to the age thing now...

Like others have said, the kids aren't entirely to blame when it comes to logging onto the world of the internet. It all has to do with the parents. If junior gets on his family computer and logs onto an adult website that has some explicit content on it, well it's the parents fault for not setting up the parental control settings properly, or putting any in the first place. If they did, little billy wouldn't be looking at those kind of websites. It's also up to the parents to make sure their kids don't go on random chat websites to where they can give out personal information to complete and total strangers. I understand how dangerous it can be when someone, especially a child, gives out personal information to strangers online. No one knows who those strangers can be; perverts, ex-convicts, undercover spies, criminals, etc. Which is also why I beleive parents should restrict their kids from going on chat websites where they have access to contact strangers.

And then there are some parents who just really don't care what their kid gets into at all. As long as little billy isn't bothering Mom or Dad, and is playing on a game about animals, they won't really bother looking into what it is the kid is seeing on this game that looks seemingly harmless. As far as some parents are concerened, "Oh it's just a game about animals, it's probably for kids so what harm can it be?" Sometimes the parents don't really look at the details or warnings posted on some game sites. Do you think junior is going to tell Mom and Dad about the rules, warnings, and other precautions an online game comes with? Probably not, since they don't want to hear Mom or Dad say, "Sorry, Billy, but you can't play that game. It's not safe."

Now to cut to the chase. Are you suggesting that FH should participate in the whole COPPA thing like WolfQuest, Neopets, and other "child games" have done? Do you really think it will make much of a difference at all?
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Nowe on January 11, 2014, 04:34:03 am
If you need more manpower to effectively moderate your community, get more mods. It's what they're for, much like your normal police officers.

You're handing me an awful lot of excuses as to why you can't abide by law, and I want to flatly say I never stated for the staff to be perfect. Again, if you expect me to be reasonable, please understand that I am indeed being reasonable. Perfection is a silly notion.

What isn't, is for me to direct your attention to what Nowe posted. You literally saw people admit to knowing or being 12 or younger on this very thread. What have you done about it? Don't entertain me with the answer, entertain your community/those who're watching this thread. What do you want them to see?

Staff who is more quick to defend themselves or staff that gets things done?

What opinion do you want to give--the impression, you want your community to have of you? Granted, you could very well not care and that is a viable option but then you wouldn't be a good option for the public relations side of staffing. Not the worst though, definitely not the worst.

Edit - Shusuke has voiced an opinion similar to mine. c8


What are you, a lawyer or something?

Getting more staff members is better said than done. When it comes to a sight like this, not just anybody can become a moderator. There are requirements, qualifications and standards to meet in order to become a moderator of FH. The current staff don't want to promote someone to hold such responsiblities and powers to the wrong people.

Back to the age thing now...

Like others have said, the kids aren't entirely to blame when it comes to logging onto the world of the internet. It all has to do with the parents. If junior gets on his family computer and logs onto an adult website that has some explicit content on it, well it's the parents fault for not setting up the parental control settings properly, or putting any in the first place. If they did, little billy wouldn't be looking at those kind of websites.
And then there are some parents who just really don't care what their kid gets into at all. As long as little billy isn't bothering Mom or Dad, and is playing on a game about animals, they won't really bother looking into what it is the kid is seeing on this game that looks seemingly harmless. As far as some parents are concerened, "Oh it's just a game about animals, it's probably for kids so what harm can it be?" Sometimes the parents don't really look at the details or warnings posted on some game sites. Do you think junior is going to tell Mom and Dad about the rules, warnings, and other precautions an online game comes with? Probably not, since they don't want to hear Mom or Dad say, "Sorry, Billy, but you can't play that game. It's not safe."

Now to cut to the chase. Are you suggesting that FH should participate in the whole COPPA thing like WolfQuest, Neopets, and other "child games" have done? Do you really think it will make much of a difference at all?


Lol considering this is a ACTUAL law that applies to FH along with many other games I would say it better be done. Lawyer or not we have a right to post our opinion unless you have a problem with that sweet heart. Parents can't surveillance their kids 24/7 nor do all parents care enough to watch what their kid does. If your going to run a online game you have to take responsibility.  There are many methods of going through the game to ban underagers besides hiring more staff.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: FinalJump on January 11, 2014, 04:44:36 am
Having once been an underage user does not denote hypocrisy should you speak about it. Your experience is unique to you after all. However, understood! c8

No, I'm not a lawyer but if you're looking for any sort of credentials the most I can offer you is I took a study in a career school for law enforcement. We studied on laws, gained some tactical knowledge officers use every day, and took a field trip out to a state police academy for a day. Worst personal experience of my life. Was done in a very military fashion. Most of the kids who graduated my class with me went to the military under the Navy, National Reserves, Army and other branches or subcategories. But as for where my understanding comes from it's by simply retaining a knowledge on laws once I've read them and being able to source my material, which is fairly general and anybody can do it if they have the desire.

I never said for FH to open up its doors to a 12 or less community. The legal red-tape would be a nightmare to handle. I've made it clear I've only stated a better handling of what they already have should be done. Once more, I point out my question as to what has been done with the ones who admitted to being or knowing underage users on this very thread.

And as for finding mods, obviously it's not easy, and I never said it was easy. I've been staff on a few things, I've spoken with staff of other sites/games, I've done my back and forth of how things can be done and various perspectives on such. Because it is just that--a perspective. It varies from person to person and I've been entirely vague as to anything further than the simple desire for FH to be serious about COPPA. If I was insinuating anything less legal based and more based on my opinion, we'd be here a while and it'd be utterly wrong of me. However stating a law and stressing the importance of it is beneficial.

Nowe is correct, however I was pointing out the excuse of having trouble managing the community, and indirectly stating I disagree that it should be a problem to manage it.

No, I am not a lawyer, lawyers defend people from the law and that's a little different than what I'm doing, and to bring in a good debate I don't need to be anything you'd find in a criminal court besides a juror.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Lady_Alizarin on January 11, 2014, 04:45:42 am
Lol considering this is a ACTUAL law that applies to FH along with many other games I would say it better be done. Lawyer or not we have a right to post our opinion unless you have a problem with that sweet heart. Parents can't surveillance their kids 24/7 nor do all parents care enough to watch what their kid does. If your going to run a online game you have to take responsibility.  There are many methods of going through the game to ban underagers besides hiring more staff.

Sweet heart? Okay, I understand that we all have the right to express our opinions about something, especially when it comes to laws/regulations and other leagal matters.... however, that doesn't give you a reason to be disrespectful.

I think it would be up to the moderators to decide whether or not a COPPA thing needs to be in effect on this site. It's not my website, and it's not my place to make that decission. Try talking to Raz or Red about that, I suppose.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Nowe on January 11, 2014, 04:46:45 am
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: FinalJump on January 11, 2014, 04:50:40 am
As stated above me, COPPA is in effect on every website and the ones that it isn't 'active' on are ones in compliance to the Exceptions list stated on the link I gave a few pages back.

There is no choice over having and not having COPPA, only whether you'd like to tailor the experience to legally support under-13 users, or to harbor only those 13 and above.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Lady_Alizarin on January 11, 2014, 05:01:10 am
I quote you

"What are you a lawyer"

I would say you began with the direspect first hon lol

You think that's disrespectful? I was merely curious about where he/she gets all this leagal knowledge. I wanted to know if he/she was a real lawyer, or if they are just someone who does alot of research on leagal stuff on their spare time.


No, I'm not a lawyer but if you're looking for any sort of credentials the most I can offer you is I took a study in a career school for law enforcement. We studied on laws, gained some tactical knowledge officers use every day, and took a field trip out to a state police academy for a day. Worst personal experience of my life. Was done in a very military fashion. Most of the kids who graduated my class with me went to the military under the Navy, National Reserves, Army and other branches or subcategories. But as for where my understanding comes from it's by simply retaining a knowledge on laws once I've read them and being able to source my material, which is fairly general and anybody can do it if they have the desire.

No, I am not a lawyer, lawyers defend people from the law and that's a little different than what I'm doing, and to bring in a good debate I don't need to be anything you'd find in a criminal court besides a juror.

And he/she gave me an answer. Thank you, Final Jump.
So Final Jump, I think if you are really concerned for these under age users on this website, you should consider speaking with the head administrators. They are always open to hearing people's opinions. Try speaking with Raz or Red... Raz has more authority, so you might want to try him.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: shusuke on January 11, 2014, 05:06:48 am
No one should even have to do such a thing as contacting an administrator.

COPPA is a LAW. You cannot dance around it or ignore it as if it is not there.

Not following it is breaking it and therefore can land you in some pretty deep crap.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: Nowe on January 11, 2014, 05:13:54 am
No one should even have to do such a thing as contacting an administrator.

COPPA is a LAW. You cannot dance around it or ignore it as if it is not there.

Not following it is breaking it and therefore can land you in some pretty deep crap.

So much This ^

FH has a very large memberbase a smaller game might have been able to get away with it but seeing how many play FH let alone have accounts would be enough for the COPPA not to turn a blind eye.
Title: Re: I thought this game was for 13+?
Post by: WhiteLightHeart on January 11, 2014, 05:23:21 am
I'm saying, ban all users you see openly stating being younger than 13 until their 13th birthday or approximate time frame they would achieve that, and investigate all claims of knowing so-and-so who is underaged.
Where is your authority to say whether or not we should ban otherwise innocent users in our community?


Here's a problem with your logic, though, if you're really wanting to play technical. Present as the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998 may be, if you actually read into the COPPA details, and you'll see that FeralHeart is not breaking this law.

1.) This law is in accord with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), an American institution.
Because of this, any children below the age of 13, that are NOT American, are not affected by this law. FeralHeart is hosted in Europe (functionally hosted in Germany, paid for and remotely hosted in Great Britain), and therefore is also not an American website. American staff (like myself) may work for it, but according to Title XIII, Section 1302., subsection 2A of the law, the name (or "Operator") whom collects and maintains the information is Razmirz, our server master. Again, he is in Great Britain, and is therefore also not directly under this law, nor is FeralHeart. KovuLKD, the game's creator (while he is not present), is also exempt from this, since he is in Singapore.
By this logic alone, American children are the only ones affected by this law.
That's not the end of it, though.

2.) The COPPA is here for the protection of children and their identifiable information, in accordance to the website Operator(s).
According to Title XIII, Section 1302, subsections 8A, 8B, 8C, 8D, and 8E of the COPPA, the identifiable information is specified as (A) a first and last name; (B) a home or other physical address including street name and name of a city or town; (C) an e-mail address; (D) a telephone number; (E) a Social Security number.
FeralHeart's Operator (Razmirz) does not harbor, collect or maintain any of the information listed here, except for each account's email, which is automatically hidden from view on the forum when registering for FeralHeart. It is not shared with any other parties, is not used for commercial use, and may only be made visible by the active willingness of this user.
Because of this, no identifiable information is shared by the operator of this site.

3.) The COPPA requires "Verifiable Parental Consent" for shared information, but see the point in white text above to prove where FeralHeart is exempt from this.
"
Quote
The term "verifiable parental consent" means any reasonable effort (taking into consideration available technology), including a request for authorization for future collection, use, and disclosure described in the notice, to ensure that a parent of a child receives notice of the operator's personal information collection, use, and disclosure practices, and authorizes the collection, use, and disclosure, as applicable, of personal information and the subsequent use of that information before that information is collected from that child.

-Title XIII, Section 1302, subsection 9 of the COPPA.
Again, FeralHeart's operators do not distribute personal, identifiable information from underaged users, nor any users, thus removing the need for direct parental consent for an underaged American user to contact the website's operator in order to play the game or use our services.

5.) Speaking of services, FeralHeart is a free, non-profit game. The operator (Razmirz) uses his money to pay for the server to run, and no other currency is used for the functioning of this game, and does not in turn directly affect its users, of age or underage according to the COPPA.
Also explicitly stated in Title XIII, Section 1302, subsection 2B, the COPPA "does not include any nonprofit entity."
A non-profit entity like FeralHeart is also exempt from this.

6.) FeralHeart is not directed at "children"
According to Title XIII, Section 1302, subsection 1, the term "Child" is anyone [American] under the age of 13.
Keeping this in mind, in Title XII, Section 1302, subsection 10 shows that this law is for websites that are specifically targeted at children [under the age of 13].
FeralHeart is aimed at the ages 13+, therefore NOT children by terms of the COPPA, and therefore NOT under this law.
"Children" under 13 may be able to come here, but we do not target them, and therefore are not a website for "children," by terms of the COPPA.

7.) Read your laws before you start throwing them at us. We are not in violation of the COPPA, and neither are our "underaged" users.[/color


Now that I'm done playing lawyer, let's have some real-talk about this.

As some of you pointed out, there are dangers with kids being online.
That's been taught to us since we were little, and we understand that no community is perfectly safe. FeralHeart is no exception.

One point was made that FH needs more moderators to keep it safe. While it is true that we are always searching for new staff, it is a logical impossibility that even if we had 100 staff members, that they would be able to catch EVERY rule-breaker, EVERY moment of EVERY day, even if they were PAID to do so, which we are not. (Look at WolfQuest, look at any paid or non-paid online community. Nothing is perfect). Not that pay makes it any less important to us-- if it did, we wouldn't be here at all.

The simple fact is that we cannot ultimately have complete, utter control over the human nature with rules and laws, with officers and judges and ban sentences galore.

Even with these, we cannot always protect our members, every second of every day. We strive to, and those members who are in a good mindset for its well-being will report misbehavior when they can-- but it is not a 100% guarantee.

How can we protect them, then? How? Are we being responsible with this fact, and our actions regarding it?
Again, we bring up the fact that FeralHeart is aimed for the ages of 13+.

According to our terms and conditions, by making an account here on FH, you are agreeing that 1.) You have read game rules and will abide by them, or you will lose your privilege to play, and 2.) You are 13+ years of age, or otherwise have permission from a parent/legal guardian in order to play, and are aware of the content in the game, as well as the possibility of rule-breakers finding their way into the game and being inappropriate.

If you are 13 or below here, it is assumed your parents are aware. However, this is not our responsibility to know (not to mention, we can't always know for every single user who joins the game!), since the game is targeted at the ages 13+. It sounds harsh, but this is in our terms and conditions, and you agreed to these when you joined.

Should someone misbehave in the game, and a parent comes up to Razmirz, saying "I'm gonna sue you, because MY CHILD saw someone pretending RAPE someone in YOUR game!"
This is a horrible thing to see, but it is protection against the staff from legal action-- we cannot always control this, and it is unrealistic to expect this.

So, if we can't control it... Maybe we should just shut the game down, right? (Wrong.)
If this were the case, then this includes almost every online game with chat capabilities.

If a parent does insist on this, though, then it is stated in our terms and conditions that we can prevent this underaged child from viewing and playing the game by restricting their access (banning) until they are 13. This is ONLY if the parent states that they do not give permission for their child to play, and therefore will be handled as such.

If you are here, it is assumed you are 13+, or have parental permission to play a game otherwise not suited for you (such as any child entering a PG13 movie, but with their parents).

This does NOT mean we don't care for our users, and their safety.
To think otherwise would be absurd.
When users misbehave, if we don't catch it, you know who can help?
You, right there.
Sitting at your computer.
The staff is working hard each day to protect this community, but it's not always enough, and this is a fact that I've stated over and over.
Whether you're a child, a teen, an adult, no matter your walk of life, if you're here on FeralHeart, we're here to protect you in our bounds. If someone is being inappropriate, bullying, or even going so far as to be an internet predator (I have not personally seen this myself, but it IS possible, as Final Jump stated), REPORT IT to us.

If we are given evidence that someone is behaving in this way, no matter the user, we will see to it that a user like this is restricted from the game and/or by any means necessary to prevent further communication.

This is not something "just for kids under the age of 13," this is for our entire community. It's not irresponsible, it's for everyone's safety here.

/rant over

Put simply, the internet is as wonderful as it is dangerous, just like real world.

FeralHeart is no different, but we are breaking No laws by allowing someone younger than our target age to partake in our community. It is not a matter of literacy, maturity, or even whether or not it is lawful. It is a matter of users enjoying our game, while the staff and those noble enough to report misbehavior to stave off those who choose to make it a worse place through rule-breaking.


From what I've seen here in the comments from the original question, I believe this topic has been twisted into something more like a free-for-all "Should we ban all 12-year-olds from the game?!?!" debate.

The answer is No, and there is no need for further discussion of it here. I'll be locking this thread, now, but feel free to message a staff member if you have further concerns.