Feral Heart

Game & Forum Discussion => Game Discussion => Topic started by: TheApplePie on November 03, 2014, 08:25:11 am

Title: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: TheApplePie on November 03, 2014, 08:25:11 am
*Violently slaps stamp of approval on Twisty's thread*
("Oh no, that was illiterate!)

This is a thread reply to Twisty's thread about people being over-literate. :'D And a bit of a guide to understand what stuff is. MODs, if you find this in the wrong area and want to move it to the tutorials board, no need to inform me. ^^
_____________________________________________________________

Firstly, let's have a look at what the actual term literate means.

It means 'able to read and write'. <-- Right
What other people make it mean 'To be able to write a novel in shakespeare style, full paragraphs.' <-- Not right

Just because someone uses the star symbol (*) and puts their actions in there, doesn't mean they're illiterate.
Just because someone doesn't use the best adjectives and nouns doesn't mean they're illiterate.
Just because someone writes a few sentences or less doesn't mean they're illiterate.

Just because someone writes with full detail about each grain of sand they step on, doesn't mean they're above the rest.
Just because someone knows more about certain species doesn't mean they're above the rest.
Just because someone has roleplayed longer and knows more about it doesn't mean they're above the rest.
Just because someone has a high grade in reading and/or writing doesn't mean they're above the rest.

Because honestly, no one is above the rest. We're all the same.
The main reason I added the whole 'JUST BECAUSE' is to show how they vary, and what people think of themselves as.

So, for example when someone uses a star symbol and doesn't write a lot, and writes with poor detail, HEY.
WAIT. There's DETAIL. *Insert drama here*

As long as people know what they're typing and what they say is readable, they are literate. Everyone that can type is.

Examples of roleplay below;
Quote
*Sits on the rock watching the forest around him and the wind blows through her black fur*
People think this is illiterate. Okay? I don't get how it is. They put description of the character,the action and setting. 3 main things for good roleplay.

Quote
'The ebony furred she-cat leapt up onto the dusty boulder, ears quivering as the strong wind pushed against her thin frame. Her hazel eyes scanned the area, each detail of the dense forest standing out in front of her wide cat eyes. She flicked her lengnthy tail and groomed her paw, licking it gently with her rough tongue and rubbing it over her forehead.'
OKAY. That's great, but it doesn't mean you're some sort of god writer, you're as good as the person in the first example.

NOW. Group literacy, illiteracy and semi literacy.
A literate group uses the example 2 style.
An illiterate group uses the example 1 style.
A semi-literate group uses a mix of both styles.

Although I believe they are all the same, this is just a way to classify roleplay skills. but with the WRONG. WORDS.

What does 'semi' mean?
Semi means half and/or split. Semi-literacy is when you use both styles, like I did at the start of my roleplay life.
The only thing you add to literate to make some one illiterate is I, right? I-literate.
So, I, meaning 'you' is that there is no classification untill 'you' add it.
MIND=BLOWN

That was a lot. But aye, someone's got to rant about it.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Kerriki on November 04, 2014, 01:13:09 am
-Agrees with you 9485739.4573%-

This bothers me... doesn't anyone know the true meaning of literate and illiterate? Glad you posted this topic, Fixl

Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: TheApplePie on November 04, 2014, 09:42:46 am
I'm glad you agree. c:
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Wyldercat on November 04, 2014, 03:42:43 pm
I also agree. In fact, not long ago, I made a similar rant, but mine was inclined more towards wolfspeak, and how some of these people get a bit snobby about it.
Anyway, great topic. I'll be sure to follow it.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Muralles on November 09, 2014, 12:46:44 am
This, 100000 times this

I actually migrated along with my entire RP community from a different MMORPG (FreeRealms) where all of the rp was put in between little action indications (-like so-)

What I find particularly INFURIATING is when people automatically assume we are some sort of "illiterate trash" quoting a group we encountered.

I'm sorry, but honestly what is the point of judging someone in an RP when the whole objective is simply to describe an action, whether in between lines, stars, in the third or first person, as long as you get your point across, what's the matter?

Writing isn't about putting the most words into a single action, it's about describing something adequately with a reasonable amount of words. Wolfspeakers and picky literates need to get off of their high horses, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Tapz on November 09, 2014, 02:30:27 am
yes yES YES! This. <3 Thank you so much for this! it's like spoken out from my mind
I really hope that this post gets noticed and that people on the game will take note of it.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: TheApplePie on November 09, 2014, 10:32:37 am
I'm glad you agree spot on the word, thank you. c:
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Whinp on November 09, 2014, 06:20:27 pm
I agree with you 100%, I'm too lazy to write god-like-super-long-pharagraphs-omg-so-much-text-to-read-no-one-will-ever-read-it-anyways roleplays, and so I use the ** and -- method. Wastes less time and is more understandable if you ask me

I remember people coming to me and saying, "you're illiterate so get out", I replied that literacy was basically being able to read and write, they just replied, "that's still illiteracy!11!!11 get ut"

-.-

Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: peete on November 10, 2014, 10:28:29 pm
(When I do roleplay, I prefer to be around people that use appropriate capitalization and punctuation, because for me personally it's easier to read and helps me get into the rp more. Remember, that's just me >:[ ) Just because I roleplay with people who use good grammar, doesn't mean I don't have friends who don't.

So if being illiterate means you don't have the ability to read and write...not using appropriate capitalization at the beginning of sentences and using apostrophes is TECHNICALLY being illiterate, in a sense that one does not know how to lay out a proper sentence.

But that doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate just because. I agree totally with...well what everyone else said. ._.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Nephrite on November 16, 2014, 06:23:19 pm
I agree, although literate, semi-literate and illiterate are kind of universal terms to indicate writing skill.

I tend to use the term advanced more than literate, since it's more than saying "we're literate"... meaning that you have the capability to read and write, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Luna. on November 17, 2014, 01:33:07 am
I totally agree with you 10,000% Fixl and I must say even though it was a rant, it was a very well throughout rant and had very good and true facts. Hopefully people will take notice of this. -claps- Well done.  ;)

.:.Rava.:.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: darkknight on November 18, 2014, 05:00:15 pm
I agree with what people have said in previous posts in this discussion. I find it ironic how some "literate" people do not know difference between the terms of literacy and illiteracy. As for role-play style, it's all about preference in posts. For example, if someone likes to post in a single sentence, they are one-line role-players. For people who favor to post in paragraphs, they're paragraph role-players or multi-paragraph. There are other terms for role-players such as these, but I simply shared the ones I know.  

This has nothing to do with "illiteracy," it's entirely dependent on preference. This is why I cannot respect the fact there are people who actually judge upon someone for there role-play posting preference and dub them illiterate. It is beyond being rude and mounted on pride.

Quote from: DevilBurgers on November 10, 2014, 10:28:29 pm
(When I do role-play, I prefer to be around people that use appropriate capitalization and punctuation, because for me personally it's easier to read and helps me get into the rp more. Remember, that's just me >:[ ) Just because I roleplay with people who use good grammar, doesn't mean I don't have friends who don't.

So if being illiterate means you don't have the ability to read and write...not using appropriate capitalization at the beginning of sentences and using apostrophes is TECHNICALLY being illiterate, in a sense that one does not know how to lay out a proper sentence.

But that doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate just because. I agree totally with...well what everyone else said. ._.
This sums up my other point in a more straightforward manner.  
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: Berrymutt on November 19, 2014, 07:53:15 pm
I couldn't agree with you more on this subject. How I Roleplay is using around three-four paragraphs containing lines my Character is saying, and details about his actions and his environment around him. How I look at it when people use the * marks to put an action in the middle between two is an action that character is doing. It's almost like they are the character themselves and there is no narrative. It's almost like a First Person look of it, in which I never had liked. I'm more of A Third Person type of Roleplayer myself, and I think why people don't like using * - etc. doing other people's Roleplays is because most people see their Roleplays as books. I never read books with the characters using * - etc. to activate their actions. Still I don't think people should be bashing on other people for their Literate skills. They should just tell them they don't like their roleplaying style instead.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: greninja on November 27, 2014, 06:14:05 am
Sadly, I think I'm going to have to be that one person who doesn't 100% agree.

Firstly, I'd like to point out- language changes. New terms, slang, etc. appear every day. We grow to attach these meanings to these words, be them incorrect or not, if it's a modified dictionary word. One prominent example is the word "literally"; we've all used it in a way aside from its actual, dictionary meaning before, don't deny it. The terms literate, semi-lit(erate), and illiterate fit this language evolution, at least in the RPing community (or maybe even more specifically in the FH community).

We grow to accept these as meanings for the level of detail in a post. When a lot of us think "literate", we think detailed, when we think "semi-literate" we think detailed but not as to the level of lit, and when we think "illiterate", we think of bad grammar and spelling. There's nothing wrong with the evolution of language, and nitpicking on this point is completely irrelevant, and frankly unnecessary. Terms evolve all the time to fit what's necessary, and this is an example of it.

Which leads onto my next point; what ARE the definitions of literate, semi-lit and illiterate, in the FH context? As I briefly explained earlier, literate mostly means people who type in 3-4 paragraphs (or more!), using lots of detail, descriptions, and such. Semi-lit is about the same, but not up to that level- maybe about 2-3 paragraphs, possibly less detail, basically a miniature version of literate. And illiterate, as I am CERTAIN we've all seen before, is bad grammar, spelling, etc.

Now one thing I'd like to state here, while somewhat off topic, is that some people who type "illiterately"- abbreviations, slang, capital letters, etc. are some of the best RPers I've seen. In fact, I'm one of them. I only RARELY ever type in proper grammar and capitalization like this. I've grown accustomed to typing like this as it's faster, easier, and manages to communicate my point well, as well as expresses my personal typing style better. Basically, if you see someone typing like this, but don't want anyone illiterate in your RP group, request an RP sample before inviting them first. Give 'em a chance first- I hate having to act like this just cause people won't take me seriously otherwise.

Anyways, with that out of the way, I'd like to bring up something in your post.

Quote

Examples of roleplay below;
Quote
*Sits on the rock watching the forest around him and the wind blows through her black fur*
People think this is illiterate. Okay? I don't get how it is. They put description of the character,the action and setting. 3 main things for good roleplay.

Quote
'The ebony furred she-cat leapt up onto the dusty boulder, ears quivering as the strong wind pushed against her thin frame. Her hazel eyes scanned the area, each detail of the dense forest standing out in front of her wide cat eyes. She flicked her lengnthy tail and groomed her paw, licking it gently with her rough tongue and rubbing it over her forehead.'
OKAY. That's great, but it doesn't mean you're some sort of god writer, you're as good as the person in the first example.

Now, this part is mostly what isn't sitting right with me. YES, they provided description of the character, the action, and the setting. But you seriously cannot deny that the second one provides more detail. It plays out more like a novel. It gives you a more vivid description of the scene in your head. You can visualize it better than the first one. And I hate to say it, but the first one is not as good as the second one.

"But why? Everybody's RPing skills are equal, no matter how much detail there is!" Sadly, I have to say something here. Not everybody is equal. Someone who can write so well that they paint a picture in your mind is not on the same level as someone who simply says "The cat leaped up onto the rock, and licked her fur as the wind blew". As I stated earlier, it is literally (in the actual sense of the word) undeniable that the second one provides a more vivid description of the setting, character, and scenario. And not everybody is capable of that. We set people up in these "groups" of sorts to tell how much detail and thought that people put into their replies. If somebody wants to RP with someone who's "literate"- someone who can use a lot of detail- that's fine. If someone wants to RP with someone who doesn't, that's fine too. It's a matter of personal preference and taste to find a good RPing buddy, and if you don't fit what they want, there's always going to be someone out there you'll be a perfect match with.

Like I said, not everybody is equal on this, no matter how badly you wish that they were. But that isn't a bad thing. If somebody's "illiterate" and having fun, by all means, let them have fun. If someone's "literate", and enjoys having that descriptor on them, and they're not waving it everywhere and saying "Hey! I use more detail than you!", that's okay too. When they start rubbing it in that they're better, then it becomes an issue that should be taken care of.

Also, on the "asterisk debate"- if someone uses asterisks to define their actions, typically that IS a common mark of illiteracy/semi-literacy, just as using a lot of detail typically is a factor in making someone literate. I say "typically" because as you said in your post, some very good writers use the asterisks, and some bad do, too. Also, some people use a load of detail, but that does NOT make them literate, either. It's about how you use that detail that makes the difference between actually literate and someone who's just trying too hard. (See: the wolf-speak posts)

Sorry for the really, really long post, but to quote what you said, "someone's got to rant about it." I'm sure I missed some of my points I had in my head while typing this, and I might come back and edit this later.

Now, don't get me wrong, I do respect your opinion.

I just hope that you can understand and respect mine, too.
Title: Re: Literate? Illiterate, what's the difference? (RP guide & Rant)
Post by: S. Italy/Romano on November 27, 2014, 04:30:21 pm
I know that maybe this isn't quite the reply you'd expect, considering most people here have agreed. But I actually have to somewhat disagree.

Quote from: Fixl on November 03, 2014, 08:25:11 am
Just because someone writes with full detail about each grain of sand they step on, doesn't mean they're above the rest.
Just because someone knows more about certain species doesn't mean they're above the rest.
Just because someone has roleplayed longer and knows more about it doesn't mean they're above the rest.
Just because someone has a high grade in reading and/or writing doesn't mean they're above the rest.

Don't be so quick to dismiss beforehand experience. If someone does write with excessive detail, then yes, it gets quite annoying. But then you come across those people who mix in the right amount of detail and action to make you enchanted into their story.

And why shouldn't they get a bit more respect or appreciation if they can enchant you with every post they write? A quick compliment like "I like your writing" or "You're good at roleplaying" doesn't place them up high on a throne above the rest. It simply serves as a way of saying that you enjoy rping with them because of their style.

Wouldn't you like to receive compliments about how nice your writing is when you pour out your heart into your posts and roleplay? Sure, grammar doesn't necessarily have to be perfect, but it's easier to read and respond to a post that is properly written than it is to decipher what that one word in the middle of that sentence was.
My second point is actually something I need to disagree with you on. I'm sorry, but if someone took their time to properly prepare themselves for roleplaying a certain species by researching them, then all the more power to them. If I wanted to roleplay a wolf without any previous knowledge about the species, them maybe I should at least go and read a wikipedia article on them, if anything.

I understand that we're not in school and we're all here to just play a game, but I think that people who actually know more about the species they're roleplaying can make the roleplay more enjoyable by not coming up with sudden unnatural powers or abilities (unless it's an unrealistic roleplay of course).

In my honest opinion, I think that those who research and learn about the species they're roleplaying should get more credit for what they do. And yes, in terms of roleplay, they are usually better able to give off a more natural feel to their roleplay than someone who doesn't know how their animal behaves.
If someone has roleplayed longer and has more experience with it, that does indeed warrant respect. If there wasn't anyone who roleplayed better than others, who would we learn from? Who would show the newbies how to better express their character, their story, their environments? I'm sorry, but once again, I have to say that in my opinion, this does make a difference. Veterans can teach newer players how to roleplay better than they already do and I think that's a wonderful thing.

Otherwise, how would we learn? Children learn from other children, but imagine a child seeing another bullying someone younger. Not a nice example, is it? It's a good thing children also learn and mimic people who are older and more experienced than them, like adults who mostly talk it out without violence and show them how to deal with things more effectively. Not to say that adults don't make mistakes, but if children didn't look up to them, I don't think we'd be able to have different opinions without beating each other up.
Once more, if someone does have a higher grade in reading/writing, it doesn't necessarily make them better, but it speeds up the roleplay. They'll type faster and expand their vocabulary (and yours, if you're willing to learn from them) instead of repeating "cat" which makes the sentences sound nicer and flow better.

Quote from: Fixl on November 03, 2014, 08:25:11 am
Because honestly, no one is above the rest. We're all the same.
If everyone was the same it'd be a very boring world. Personal style is what makes rping unique and fun. I sure don't want to see everyone using the same sentence to describe their characters sitting. As much as sometimes people want everyone to be equal, I'd like to know when was there a time where someone wasn't bullied for being different? Not to say that we shouldn't change, but don't expect people to come and accept what they hated overnight. Of course I still stand by my point that no one should be bullied because of what they're able or aren't able to do.

My final comparison is with drawing. Take a stick figure and then take a picture of a man/woman/whatever drawn with lighting, shading and volume, showing a clear comprehension of anatomy and an understanding of reality. No matter what you do or say, that stick figure will never be as good as that other picture. The stick figure artist can, however, learn from the other artist and paint an even better picture with which he'll feel satisfied for accomplishing. But if you only take the first pictures, there is an obvious difference between knowledge of anatomy and composition.

There's style and then there's experience. One should not disguise their lack of experience as style. One should learn and accumulate experience from others who share it, so that they may in turn share it with others and enhance their style with experience. People who draw comics and graphic novels sometimes stylize their characters, but even then, you can clearly see they know where muscles are placed and how they operate, that's not something you can fake.

Quote from: greninja on November 27, 2014, 06:14:05 am
Quote

Examples of roleplay below;
Quote
*Sits on the rock watching the forest around him and the wind blows through her black fur*
People think this is illiterate. Okay? I don't get how it is. They put description of the character,the action and setting. 3 main things for good roleplay.

Quote
'The ebony furred she-cat leapt up onto the dusty boulder, ears quivering as the strong wind pushed against her thin frame. Her hazel eyes scanned the area, each detail of the dense forest standing out in front of her wide cat eyes. She flicked her lengnthy tail and groomed her paw, licking it gently with her rough tongue and rubbing it over her forehead.'
OKAY. That's great, but it doesn't mean you're some sort of god writer, you're as good as the person in the first example.

Now, this part is mostly what isn't sitting right with me. YES, they provided description of the character, the action, and the setting. But you seriously cannot deny that the second one provides more detail. It plays out more like a novel. It gives you a more vivid description of the scene in your head. You can visualize it better than the first one. And I hate to say it, but the first one is not as good as the second one.

"But why? Everybody's RPing skills are equal, no matter how much detail there is!" Sadly, I have to say something here. Not everybody is equal. Someone who can write so well that they paint a picture in your mind is not on the same level as someone who simply says "The cat leaped up onto the rock, and licked her fur as the wind blew". As I stated earlier, it is literally (in the actual sense of the word) undeniable that the second one provides a more vivid description of the setting, character, and scenario. And not everybody is capable of that. We set people up in these "groups" of sorts to tell how much detail and thought that people put into their replies. If somebody wants to RP with someone who's "literate"- someone who can use a lot of detail- that's fine. If someone wants to RP with someone who doesn't, that's fine too. It's a matter of personal preference and taste to find a good RPing buddy, and if you don't fit what they want, there's always going to be someone out there you'll be a perfect match with.

Like I said, not everybody is equal on this, no matter how badly you wish that they were. But that isn't a bad thing. If somebody's "illiterate" and having fun, by all means, let them have fun. If someone's "literate", and enjoys having that descriptor on them, and they're not waving it everywhere and saying "Hey! I use more detail than you!", that's okay too. When they start rubbing it in that they're better, then it becomes an issue that should be taken care of.

I have to agree here greninja, 100%