Feral Heart
Off topic => Discussion Board => Topic started by: Sylph on April 20, 2011, 09:25:59 pm
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Just a thought..
I remember, way back in January 2010, I came back to DrA (Dragonadopters) after a long inactive absence. I posted around again, and got to know new members and old. I had a lot of good friends there. Then after a few months, I met this other member on the Dragon Cave thread. She was nice, and fun to talk to. We had many discussions and jokes about dragons, and Dragon Cave. I always looked forward to talking to her again, and cherished all our jokes and conversations. Probably my best internet friend at the time. Then she went inactive for a time. I had PM'd her why. (I won't say because that's her business). When she came back, I was glad to see her again and we talked again. In chats with my other friends, etc. That went on until yesterday. When I received a PM from her. She had written that she was leaving. Leaving DrA and the internet all together. I was shocked, and stunned. And to my surprise, I seriously cried. Because...I couldn't believe it. I had found out why she was, and I feel so bad..but I'll never forget her.
So these past two days have been rough for me, knowing that I'll never have another conversation with her about Night Furies, Dragon Cave, etc. Someone who had the same interests as me. It tore me apart, and I will miss her greatly.
But I had to share this, because I need to get it out of me. And I chose here because I've been here for a while, and I know a lot of you well. And also because you don't know her. I'd rather not reveal who she is.
But yeah, that's been on my mind. And brings up another question. Has anyone else suffered from something like this?
Mods: If this isn't right for here, by all means, feel free to delete it.
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Feel sorry for you. And I have had an experience like this. I made a friend on youtube that I started talking to on youtube. One day they randomly messaged me and said they were moving and they would not be on anymore. (I am guess they went to another country?) anyway, They were one of the only people I ever talked to! (If you wonder why I say they. It is because i did not know their gender.) so now I dont use youtube too much. Only to upload about once a month. :(
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Aw, I'm sorry to hear that. Losing someone that knows you so well, and has your same interests can be as bad as losing a good friend in real life.
*hugs*
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This has happened to me. D: It's not fun. :c This happened with me a few of my old friends on Youtube, who I met back in 2007-2008. Some of them I've lost complete contact with.. but the other few.. I was able to get a hang on them and we actually have a private Xat chatroom as of.. yesterday. xD It's always nice to get people back. I guess I was lucky.
But yeah. This has happened to me way more times than one. It even happens irl, I hate it. Dx
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Something like this happened to me once. I met a great roleplaying friend on another site, we had quite a few role play's together, most of them just between us. I enjoyed talking to them, and our RP's were awesome. But one day they stopped posting for a long time, and one day one of their friends posted saying they were in hospital (They were sick, which I had known at the time, and it had flared up.) There was one post from them after that, just explaining the situation. Then there was an extremely long wait for another post from them, just to see how the situation was going. Their friend then posted again, explaining that they had passed. That was the first time I had ever cried over the death of a human. My Aunt and cousin had died before her, and I didn't cry at all, but then this person I barely knew from the internet dies and I was shaken... We weren't best of friends or anything, but our Roleplays were some of the best I had ever been in, and talking to them was great and always cheered me up...
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It sucks when this happens, it really does. Everyone has to leave eventually. I don't think I ever will, I don' think I ever could! I've made so many amazing friends which mean the world to me, I couldn't just ditch them like that. If I left the internet, I would still have their phone numbers so I could keep in contact with them somehow. It tears me apart to think of ever leaving them and doing that to them. It makes me want to cry.
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Gah...sorry to hear all that guys. But it's nice to know that I'm not one of the few. You know?
But yeah...
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I know exactly how you feel, and I can really relate with Kyu as well.
I use to play this other online game, the first online chat game I've ever done actually. It was really fun and all, but the best part about it was the people I've met. There was this one person from a few others that I loved to hang out with, and always looked forward to when they came on. We would chat and hang out, and I was surprised at how much we had in common. I mean, it was like hanging out with another me almost!
It might be weird to have a friend like this only online, and maybe even sad and pathetic, at least to others, but I do have friends in real life but hasn't anyone ever felt like, well, they don't really care as much for you? That their likes and dislikes are completely different from yours and when your going through some hards times they may not show much concern for you when you would for them?
In real life, I had some friends like this but I could never get really close to someone because my family and I always had to move, so I have to leave my friends behind. I would only have a few friends because I'm not a huge crowd person, but when we leave I don't feel to torn apart because we just never seemed that close.
So anyway, where I was going with this was that I actually felt like there was someone who actually cared what was going on with me and if I was upset or anything they did their best to cheer me up, and I did the same for them. It was awesome and I loved every conversation we had, and I would be sad when either of us had to leave.
However, my friend was also sick, and I was being told that they may not be able to come on because their parents didn't want them to be stressed from the internet... If that made any sense. The sickness was serious, but I won't say what it was. So when they stopped coming, I was so upset... I hung out with my other friends from that game but I always missed that person. They didn't show up for months, until one day in the summer, they finally showed up! I was so happy I thought I would burst into tears with happiness! But then, of all the worse luck in the entire world and of all times to happen, my internet crashed! I tried to get back on as quickly as possible, but when I came back on they were gone...
I had never been so sad in my life, and I never saw that person again. I still went on that game, but going on it less and less, hoping to see the person again, but failed each time, until I finally stopped completely recently. It's almost been a year since I last saw them.
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Katsa ~ I was listening to a sad song while reading your story DD8
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Aw, that made me really sad Katsa. :/ Really sorry to hear that. ;_; Poor you.
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Awee.. I'm so sorry, Sylph..
I hope everything gets better for you.. :c
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I can relate to this, it's a bit too personal but trust me, you're not the only one, and i'm very sorry this happened to all of you. you were lucky to have known some honest friends. (though, me story is quite silly, but i'm not going to reveal any names.)
I have bad taste in men. apparently always have until now. I did date someone, i won't say who, but we had been roleplaying for quite awhile. They were happy with it until a few months in, when they vanished. I waited for a few months, they finally got online once and when I said hello, they explained it was not them, but their sibling, and that they were also ill.
three months later that person came back and explained that they had died, and I was quite shaken over this. Naturally, I never heard from them again.
But this is when it gets funny.
I saw them a year later with the same friends as before, same person.
Needless to say, it was irritating, and my friend (whom we all know as 'Claire Redfield') was with me for most of the time i was with the individual. Yes, she trolled them. and yes, they deserved it. because I learned from their close friend it was all a lie.
You people were lucky to have honest friends, I think iw as getting karma'd for something, i don't know what. but that was a few years ago and, trust me, i'm over it. (though i wish i still had those logfiles, Claire sure was funny.)
but, again, i am sorry this happened, you were lucky to have good, honest people there. really. it seems they're hard to come by in real life. but that's why we have the internet, it makes finding them easier. I've had two other relationships that ended in lies like this, my expectations of humanity are not very high.
But the fact that someone was honest and nice to you, and was a good friend to you, is always great. I'm terribly sorry for your losses.
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Thank you both Sylph and Teal for your sympathies, means a lot :3
Sort of curious though, what song were you listening to Teal?
Yes, what happened was very sad, so I understand how you feel Sylph :c And also Kyu. You may not know the person online in real life, but they are still people and fun to hang around with, as long as you stay safe.
The worse part is was that the sickness I have mentioned was also fatal, so I don't even know if that person passed away or if their parents just kept them from using the internet...
I hope they're okay.
@Motoko: That's horrible, but something very simular like that happened to me as well. I was so angry. I'd rather not go on to explaining that story, however. To long and to much explaining to do.
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Aw, that's awful Motoko! D: Really sorry to hear that. :/
Katsa, I do hope they are okay too. It'd be awful for them to have passed. D:
And thank you for your sympathies everyone. <3 Means a lot. Really.
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Sort of curious though, what song were you listening to Teal?
Alternia from the Homestuck album 'AlterniaBound' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIj_Mkih088#)
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Sorry for all of you! I might need to stop reading this topic! I get sadder and sadder every time. :(
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Sorry to read over your stories guys. :/ It's really awful to lose a friend, especially an online one. And I mean, yeah, real friends mean a lot to us. But, I'm not sure about you, but for me, online friends mean more to me than real life friends sometimes.
Something similar had happened to me before. So a year or two ago I used to be on WolfQuest, and after joining a pack I found there, I met this person who used to RP with me quite often. Before we realized we were more than two random pals that liked to RP together, but also started PMing each other and chatting quite often. I always used to look forward to the time she would get online to chat. Along three other of my friends we made a little group, and I was happy as ever to hang out with them. Each of them meant a lot to me, and I chatted personally with them alone, and altogether. But it was one day when one of our "group's" pal came online. And, well, she did not behave like she often did. Until she admitted what had happened. Her mother had passed. After that, she started coming on less and less. Me and my three other friends did everything to cheer her up and keep her with us. It helped, but only for a while. Eventually she went poof, and I never saw her again until now. I have kept in touch with my three other friends, although, it will never be the same without the last piece which is still missing.
But I have gotten over that, since I have decided to move on and I have met lots of other people who have became great friends of mine. Although, I often tend to have doubts about my online friends ever since.
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Alternia from the Homestuck album 'AlterniaBound' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIj_Mkih088#)
D: Awwww! That song was sad!
And yeah, losing an online friend is just as sad and sometimes more upsetting to lose than losing one in real life. I don't know why making a friend online is different than from real life.
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I believe it can be more upsetting, since there is always a way to reconnect with a person you met in real life, but that's me. :/
@Sarine: That is indeed sad, to have your friend disappear without a warning. D: Really sorry. *hugs* But at least you've moved on. :3
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I believe it can be more upsetting, since there is always a way to reconnect with a person you met in real life, but that's me. :/
I agree. Purely because with online friends that are overseas you cannot be there physically when things go wrong or they're upset etc. And when they don't come online for a while you can't easily contact them as you would with "real life" friends like by using a phone or something. Unless you're lucky and somehow can.
It's so hard because you can't actually be there even though you want to be.
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Argh, all these stories.. brings back memories.
I'm sorry to hear that story Sylph, it sucks to
loose a friend, yes indeedy.
I had a best friend. We went to the same school, saw each other everyday. But we talked more
online. Why? Because she was the "it" gurl and apparently it was embarrassing to talk to normal
girls, like myself. But at that time, i didn't care about it. We were really close, we'd talk
everyday after school, online. It was really fun, we talked about the most random things ever. At
school we wouldn't hang out as much, but i was always there for her. Always.
One day, she completely ignored me. When she went online, she wouldn't talk to me. I talked to her,
but she wouldn't reply. It went on for a week. I confronted her about it. But she wouldn't say or do
anything, she just fell silent. Like i wasn't even there. I walked off feeling like the biggest idiot out. After that day i had gone completely insane, i wouldn't talk to anyone, i'd beat someone up. Maybe it was puberty hitting me like a ton of bricks, who knows.
I did a lot of horrible things to her as well. Verbally. I called her a lot of things, names and all. Then we
just hated each other for a long long time. I began to miss her. I spent my nights crying about her and staring at the phone, wondering if i should call her and say i was sorry. But i didn't, i was too afraid, she probably hates me like hell, i thought. Eventually, i realized how awful i've been to others. I apologized to everyone that i've hurt, besides her. I moved on and made some other friends, but i still thought about her every now and then, still cry myself to sleep every now and then.
At the beginning of the year she talked to me online. She apologized. That was totally unexpected. I was so happy. She told me that she missed me and that she was sorry for ignoring me. I was so friggin happy. She called me and we started screaming over the phone, telling each other we're sorry and stuff, crying haha Dx
So now, we're okay. But we'll never be the same again, we'll never be best friends again. And it just kills. I can't talk to her in real life, at all. I try, but words never come out, i just feel this sickening guilt twisting about in my stomach. Brings me back to when we hated each other. Even now i STILL cry about her. Sigh. But yes, friends come and go, all the time. It's sad, but we learn to move on.
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D: I wonder why she ignored you though...
Thats terrible, it aweful how fast things could change, like how you were both the bestest friends, and then it suddenly just came crashing down.
I know what its like losing a friend, sadly its happened to me repeatedly, in real life and online V.V
This story involves the same friend though that I hadn't seen for so long.
Again, its crazy how fast things change. I remember how fun it use to be to get online and see my friend, they were just always there to talk to and hang out with. I would talk with them along with a few other friends, and for a time it was great. When suddenly it all came crashing down. My friend started coming on less and less, and they were having issues in real life that I did my best to help cheer them up and make them feel better (hard to do when its only online), which worked for a time, I had lost another friend, the others were fighting with each other and getting moody, and way to personal with the game...
It was so hectic and crazy, that was when I started coming on less.
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One day, she completely ignored me. When she went online, she wouldn't talk to me. I talked to her,
but she wouldn't reply.
If there's something I absolutely hate in this world, it's when people do this.
I hate it even more if people just flat out for no reason stop talking to you and you have absolutely no clue in why they do that.
That happened to me and my very first friend on DA and quite possibly she was my very first online "best friend". We would chat about a whole lot of things like friends would do and such. It even got up to the point where we'd talk about the day if we ever would actually meet up in real life since she lived in the UK.
Then one day we slowly began to drift, she began to change and I never knew why at the time. Ultimately she ended up blocking me. I discovered this through another friend (who's ironically an ex-friend now PFF. Let's call them 'Person B' ) because she also had her on msn.
I was angry and hurt because she'd been one of my closest friends and she then goes and does something like that, there wasn't much I could do as even when I'd tried emailing her she'd ignore my emails. In the end I told myself "If she's going to be this way, it's not worth it." and I gradually got over it.
Until one day another one of her friends (Let's call them 'Person C' ) begins to have difficulties with her, I was also an aquaintance of Person C and we'd then rant to one another about her. It was here when I discovered why my "friend" had blocked me. It was all because she did not like my drawing style when I drew one of her species she'd made up (which she let me draw of course).
Yeeeep, ditching me all because of a drawing style.
In a way, I was kind of glad that we'd parted ways, since she somehow changed so drastically from when I first met her. And anyway...who would want to be friends with someone who will block you because they hate how you draw?
Ironically and sadly the ex-friend I talk of here is best friends with Persons B and C to this very day. Although how they are, I have absolutely no idea since they used to dislike her. But anyway...
Another thing that really bothers me, is when people don't want to be friends/flat out stop talking to you because of OCs. Not real life things. Fictional Character things. In most of the times that's happened to me, I've never seen it coming. You'd never know that these people would suddenly pull a stunt like that :\
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This is one of the reasons why I hate people with a passion. I like very few people, and sometimes those people annoy me...
I know how you feel. This other friend I know, who is like my bestie online friend, had been going through some kind of phase sometime ago. This person I met through the same game I had been talking about my other friend, the one who suddenly disappeared.
When we first met, everything was great, we hung out and such, yada yada yada...
However, they soon began to change. They had very strange mood swings, getting angry out of no where. They took the game to personally, getting to stressed over it and I kept telling them to just take a break, it was just a game and not going anywhere. Take a day off or two until you feel better...
Apparently, that advice was ignored. When they were going through these strange mood swings, I did my best to help cheer them up, being happy and helping them move along. They would sometimes calm down and feel a little better, though still slightly irritated, and what they were getting upset about was always something different, either a real life issue, some online friend, or the game. Though everytime there was something wrong they sort of sounded small and not really somethi
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Yeah, mood swings suck --
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However, they soon began to change. They had very strange mood swings, getting angry out of no where...
Apparently, that advice was ignored. When they were going through these strange mood swings, I did my best to help cheer them up, being happy and helping them move along.
I've experienced this too but with different people, I won't really get into detail about it but ugh you try and help them and they get all irrational/angry at you even though you've done nothing wrong or just brush off your help over and over. You just don't know what to do anymore and it just falls apart...
I hate it how I keep thinking that people's old selves will come back even when I know they won't. It happens every time :\
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Ack, that can be the worst. When friends change. :/ They aren't even themselves anymore, which is upsetting.
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I know, right? Its frustrating and soon I just run out of patience and get irritated.
((Oh no, part of my rant was cut off Dx Oh well.))
However, during one of my friend's mood swings, I finally had enough and told them straight off exactly what I thought of them. I told them I was sick and tired of the mood swings and to get over themsevles, yada yada yada. It was basically a "had enough" moment I had.
It seemed to work, for my friend was sort of shocked and surprised, and the mood swings ceased and they became nicer and had more control of themselves. Now we're the bestest friends again :p
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O: Lucky, when we tried that it didn't go so well, they were in such a huge denial and didn't know why we were irritated :\
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Yeah, unfortunately that tends to happen most of the time xP
People just hate to admit that they were in the wrong, they're even going so far as losing a good friendship.
I'm just glad my friend wasn't that way. Before they had been acting immature, irritated, emotional, ect, but they took a huge leap forward by doing what they just did. When I gave it to them straight, they knew their wrongs and worked at them, becoming a better person and getting less angry with their friends. We get along now.
Hope that didn't sound like I was rubbing it in haha.
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Nah, it's ok XDD
Everyone acts different and they take things differently to others. Some may take it well, some won't.
Though it does make me wonder the 'what if' if they'd acted differently and listened to us and saw how they were behaving.
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Gah, I understand how you feel. I hate it. Somehow online friends are most of my closest friends. People at school and my other friends think it's weird that I draw wolves and like them so much. But on here and other sites people understand that and are united by that same intrest. I love that. I can talk about it all I want and no one looks at you like you're insane and weird. Especially when I draw my online friends pictures. They love them. My irl friends don't really. I've lost a lot of insanely great online friends recently because they went inactive. I cried to, you're not the only one. For I think the online friends and the best. They cannot judge you by how you appear, just how you act. That's how you get the best friends.
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I feel The Same.
Roleplaying, No one understands It. They think I'm weird and Always Ask Me What I do On This Site.
I try to explain but They don't get it. They think I'm weird If I draw Manga. And That's Why I never Share This Side of Me.
But With Peeps on The Internet, They understand Anime, Manga, Roleplaying.
I had met lots of Close Friends on CS, Especially A Girl Named Kalbers (She is now named Leaf)
She was honestly My Best Friend and I felt really Sad, Since COPPA (It stands for Children of Parental Protection Agency) was implemented I would never speak to them again.
But Last Night, I got a Happy Ending. I was on Wajas, Talking to Kyugima (One of My RP Friends) and Then I saw Someone named Kalbers21/60. I almost knew it was her, No one has a name like that.
So I PMed Her and It was her, So I can talk to her on there now! :)
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Aw, thats great news ^.^
Making friends online is just so much easier, while its harder in real life and no one seems to care much of what you do <. <
In fact, most of the time I cannot have a mature or good conversation with any of the kids my age in real life because they always turn anything I say into a dirty joke -_-
I would be serious and say something, and then suddenly everyone around me starts laughing like crazy and I'm standing there with a confused expression on my face. I have to be extra careful of what I say now because if I say anything now, everybody just starts laughing. I hate it.
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Oh, gawd, I HATE that. Everyone is so childish. I can't say anything without it being dirty. I only don't mind it when I talking with online friends and I ment it to be a bit dirty. Other than that, I hate when kids do that.
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I mean, Sometimes I get The Wrong Idea If It Sounds Dirty and Even On FH, We do a bit of Dirty Jokes Here and There But They are meant to be funny.
It really nice to have people that understand What You Talk About.
I guess. If I wasn't called to RPing and It wasn't A Natural Gift, I wouldn't have the amazing friends I have on The Internet Now.
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Gah, I understand how you feel. I hate it. Somehow online friends are most of my closest friends. People at school and my other friends think it's weird that I draw wolves and like them so much. But on here and other sites people understand that and are united by that same intrest. I love that. I can talk about it all I want and no one looks at you like you're insane and weird. Especially when I draw my online friends pictures. They love them. My irl friends don't really. I've lost a lot of insanely great online friends recently because they went inactive. I cried to, you're not the only one. For I think the online friends and the best. They cannot judge you by how you appear, just how you act. That's how you get the best friends.
All of that.
I get along far better with my online friends compared to my real life ones. I mean sure I got along with my friends in real life we had fun and such but they never totally shared the same interests and all that, that I have.
I took the giant risk and met two of my online friends in America, that experience set in stone that I preferred them over my real life friends here.
My RL friends are now just all..."BOYSBOYSBOYS ALCOHOL PARTIES MORE ALCOHOL BOYSBOYS" which I'm not interested in. My online friends do none of that so I had a much much better time with them and I just get along better with them, we're all gamers, draw, be tards etc XD.
Of Course the downside is, is that they live all the way over in America and I live all the way in Australia.
In school I was the girl who liked dinosaurs instead of playing with dolls and makeup. I went to an all girls catholic school blergh. So I was always the odd one out most of the time.
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@Draak
Exactly. Internet Makes Me Feel Like I'm Not Alone, That Me, The Person Typing, Was Pefect and No one Cared About My Flaws.
I mean Sure, I do Think Some Celeb Boys are Hot But I'm More Excited About Anime Boys Than Real Life Guys. I mean, I do Have Guy Friends In Real Life But I love My Internet Friends.
Hell, I even know One Guy Who I met On The Internet and I have him as My FB Friend and He is like a Role-Model To Me.
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Yeah, the internet kinda oddly makes you feel more included.
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Yeah. That's Why RL Is So hated, Because You have to deal with all of the drama and problems.
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Exactly! Life if filled with to much drama and problems, most of which are avoidable but people just refuse to avoid them. I come online to get away from that and a little break from RL, though sometimes, unfortunately, there's a lot of drama and issues online as well -_-
I feel closer to people online because as all of you have said already, I have more things in commen with them than anyone else I met in real life. In real life, I like never talk to anyone, which some mistake as me being shy (I sometimes get shy, but I can talk to someone if I'm spoken to), but really I'm just not interested in what they all have to say, and again if I say anything they turn it into a dirty joke.
Boys, alchohol, parties, cars, magazines, ect. When they try talking to me about this stuff, I just start to drift away and zone them out. This is when my "just smile and nod" technique pays off x3
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Lol. Good Technique to master, I'd say.
I mean, I do talk to people in RL and My shyness has worn off me. I Still Like Some Topics Such as Music Or Movies.
It Feels Weird Because I Speak Intelligently and They Look at Me Weird
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Like they don't understand you at all, right?
This is why I only have like two friends, while everyone else has five or more xD
I talk to some people, but don't really consider them as 'friends'. The friends I do have seem to understand me more, and we have a lot more in common and love to hang out. There are a few issues here and there but they don't annoy me to insanity xD
I mean in real life by the way, I have more friends online than in real life haha.
Yes, I like very, and I mean very few people in the world.
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That's Sad Because, You can never show THAT side of you. (Sorry, Too Lazy To do Italics)
I mean, I use to Play Runescape (Rage Quit A lot) But My Parents and Brother Understood That, Cause My Brother use to play and He use to have a Membership So...
But When I like Listen To Anime and Speak in Like, Japanese, Only My Brother Would understand Animes and Manga. But He would understand Japanese Cause He studied that for about a long time.
Classmates and Such Basically Force me to speak modernly.
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I had one real life gamer friend, then they grew out of it :c we'd play Nintendo games a whole lot. I miss it a lot.
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I had a friend that I met on Youtube when I was younger. He was my very first friend on the internet ever. We rp'd every single day since we met. This lasted for a long time. Months. Almost a whole year. And then he stopped getting on so much. I asked him why and he just told me he had things to do. He went inactive for a very long time afterwards. I didnt even get to have conversations with him anymore.
Finally he just stopped all together. I was very angry with him. 1. Because he didnt even give me legit reasons. He even started to get on again, but he'd never say a word to me! No "Hello, how ya doin" or nothing! I just left it alone until I couldnt take it anymore.
I finally spoke up and told him how I felt. He never responded.
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I kinda Do Get Him. I mean, He was probably Busy and All Used That Time To Check up On RP's.
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^If your responding to me, than I highly doubt that. I was the only person he rp'd with. And even if you he was busy all the time, he couldve at least said hi once in a while. And not just disappear.
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Well Some People Change, Internet Wise or RL Wise.
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So true V.V
I despize it though when a friend just completely ignores me, and when this happens and even if I ask what's wrong and they don't answer, then I just say "whatever" and leave them be.
Though I hate it when this happens and when I don't answer them they suddenly get mad at me and accuse me of ignoring them. -.-
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Lucky Enough, I have Good Internet Friends That Care about Me and Miss Me.
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Most of the friends I've lost over the years were people I knew in real life. Some of them we just grew apart- we can still talk to each other on a friendly acquaintance sort of level. Strangely enough, I became close to my internet friends of years and years and I went to visit them in person last summer. It was awesome. This is coming from someone who used to have an internet-paranoid parent. ;D
But yeah, that sucks. It's better that she's just leaving and you didn't get into a fight or anything. Maybe you'll bump into each other online in the future. I know I see people from this one forum I used to be on /everywhere/. Seriously. The internet is kind of small. XD
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Which Takes Me Back To My Experience. I thought I would never speak to Kalbers again then I stumbled across her on Wajas, Which Meant I was suppose to meet her again :3
Which taught me a lesson....
You never know when you might stumble across an old friend :)