Feral Heart

Game & Forum Discussion => Game Discussion => Topic started by: FOXHOUND on January 07, 2017, 12:07:41 am

Title: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: FOXHOUND on January 07, 2017, 12:07:41 am

i'm kinda disappointed this is a continued trend in-game and especially in roleplay circles (or honestly just in outside conversation, entirely out-of-character and meant only to chat), BUT im gonna try and be impartial anyhow.  anyway there's always a handful of plenty or, just, a handful of people with some Morbid Superiority Complex bcus you like.  abbreviate a few words or don't capitalise everything before starting a new sentence and etc etc and it's honestly so disconcerting. like i kind of figured this was a minor phenomenon that would fade as this game ran its course further and further. but anyway i don't really want to state my own opinion about this bcus this is a very good Discussion Thread idea & i would love to hear other sides and opinions on this. i feel like there's feasible arguments but i wanna seeee lol

so basically um do u think that 'literate rps / literate people' r right to kinda ignore or Politely downplay people who type kinda like how i am, or evne just how younger-seeming  ppl may type (added emojis like xD or OnO / 'outdated' abbreviations, stuff like lolz& etc)
or are those concerns valid bcus they may rightly-so want good writers to interact &rp with them only and not inexperienced ones? i think it remains very Prevalent in-game and in rp and i'd really like to know what u all think!

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Kerriki on January 07, 2017, 12:49:34 am

Yeah, this is something that has been around for a long time. Like you said, I thought it would fade away, but in fact, it's gotten worse throughout the years

Almost all the groups I see advertising label themselves as "literate" and most require a roleplay sample before joining. Because of this, most younger players/non-native English speakers/others who may not worry about perfect grammar and spelling are often excluded, and it's sad. Before the update, these players could roleplay their hearts out in Bonfire where they could easily join into an rp and have fun. Now it seems like there's no place for them to join up...

I think people need to be a little more accepting of other people's roleplaying styles and not be so demanding. FH is a game meant for everyone; not every player is an American college student. It is not an English class, it is a game; people should be more focused on simply having fun in my opinion

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Morgra on January 07, 2017, 01:25:47 am

I think you have a point here honestly. There was a similar topic here if you want to read the responses on it here: http://feral-heart.com/smf/index.php?topic=56488.0 (http://feral-heart.com/smf/index.php?topic=56488.0) It's not as similar as I thought when I first looked at it, but it still could be useful for ya ^^


Now, I haven't been involved in any roleplay groups here in years but I still have an opinion on this. Sure, I feel it's acceptable to have a little bit of a standard that you set for literacy levels as that is a person's choice. Especially if someone wants more mature members in their group for the purpose of roleplaying out more mature scenarios. However, in being extremely exclusive, many of the roleplay groups are dismissing the idea of people having individual roleplay styles. It is very well known that not every person is the same. That's the beauty in humanity, honestly. None of us look the same way, none of us talk the same way and therefore, none of us are going to type the same way and use the same vocabulary. Our lifetime experiences, our personality and our environment condition us into the people we are and what we say and do. Therefore, when a group leader is accepting new members and declining people based on what they see as "literate" or "illiterate", it is almost always subjective and based on that leader's or the group moderator's personal opinion and viewpoint. I don't think literacy alone should be the only factor in bringing people into groups because of this. You could have someone approach your group wanting to join who seems to be the dictionary definition of illiterate to you. They may not spell correctly or may use punctuation incorrectly, you name it. However, this person could also have a creative mind that could work wonders. They would be able to bring a lot of ideas and writing prompts to the table that you may not have thought of. They could even be an excellent map maker and be a kind enough person to volunteer and create a map for the group. Just because a person isn't the best at creating fluency in their writing or typing in perfect English doesn't mean they can't be a valuable member of a group. This all ties into the "don't judge a book by it's cover" phrase. You never know who you may be excluding from your group and what they could've provided for you and the other members. Not only that but it seems like a good portion of the people who are very strict about literacy levels are declining people in a very patronizing and rude way. It's not healthy for this community at all.

Now, granted, I don't think this is going to change anytime soon. I don't think a lot of people in those types of groups have a very open mind about this. I can only hope that we begin to see more groups being more "community" friendly and less people shaming others for not having the same writing style as their own. I'm not saying basic literacy isn't important, it is. It's just become too much of a partiality.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: FOXHOUND on January 07, 2017, 01:40:42 am

@ morgra & @kiki

thank you both so much for your input.  they both just about sum up my stance on the subject - a ruling superiority complex with this type of interaction is never healthy tbh.  i won't go so far as to say that we should all take someone who isn't that good with english / writing and teach them ourselves but honestly kindness or, daresay, just fair-hearted dismissal or encouraging criticism doesn't hurt anyone? a lot of upstanding 'literates' are very rude about their interactions with people less experienced than them and i've honestly seen several encounters where what they had to say only amounted to straight-up bullying or established that they were Inferior bcus they didn't live up to this standards.

and like? i can write okay.. when someone asks for a sample i think i adequately deliver but even before that there's circumstances where im automatically rejected bcus i made you 'u' or didnt throw in a capital or 2.  i cant imagine how much worse it can sometimes be for ppl who know english as a second language or are simply so much YOUNGER but still very interested in rping + writing! even without people willing to graciously teach others FH rp would benefit greatly from just a little acceptance and kind comments to put someone in the right direction.  there's plenty 2 be discouraged of but also plenty to benefit from on this site.  FH honestly taught me to write when i was 10. i hope that other younger kids that were like me who r joining now will have the same opportunity& not be discouraged by Exclusivity.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Morgra on January 07, 2017, 02:05:25 am

Quote from: FOXHOUND on January 07, 2017, 01:40:42 am

@ morgra & @kiki

thank you both so much for your input.  they both just about sum up my stance on the subject - a ruling superiority complex with this type of interaction is never healthy tbh.  i won't go so far as to say that we should all take someone who isn't that good with english / writing and teach them ourselves but honestly kindness or, daresay, just fair-hearted dismissal or encouraging criticism doesn't hurt anyone? a lot of upstanding 'literates' are very rude about their interactions with people less experienced than them and i've honestly seen several encounters where what they had to say only amounted to straight-up bullying or established that they were Inferior bcus they didn't live up to this standards.

Exactly! I agree with you on all of that. I wouldn't ever offer to teach someone, unless they asked and really wanted help. Depending on the person, that can come off as patronizing as well. I wouldn't really give much advice other than to just "be yourself" anyway. And yeah, they are rude in the way they approach the situation. I'm glad you made this topic for that reason alone ^^

Quote from: FOXHOUND on January 07, 2017, 01:40:42 am

and like? i can write okay.. when someone asks for a sample i think i adequately deliver but even before that there's circumstances where im automatically rejected bcus i made you 'u' or didnt throw in a capital or 2.  i cant imagine how much worse it can sometimes be for ppl who know english as a second language or are simply so much YOUNGER but still very interested in rping + writing! even without people willing to graciously teach others FH rp would benefit greatly from just a little acceptance and kind comments to put someone in the right direction.  there's plenty 2 be discouraged of but also plenty to benefit from on this site.  FH honestly taught me to write when i was 10. i hope that other younger kids that were like me who r joining now will have the same opportunity& not be discouraged by Exclusivity.

I'm sorry to hear that you'e experienced that. I only hope that at some point you find a roleplay that doesn't disregard you like that. None of us are perfect! I think that some of these people need to take a look at their own flaws before acting as if they are better than everyone else.

I'm also happy you brought up the point about the younger members. This is a great point! Kids and younger players can learn a lot from FeralHeart. However, because of people being so insensitive towards anyone who displays any type of lower writing level, they are destroying any opportunity that young person has to grow and learn. If these "critics" put as much energy into helping these younger members as they do belittling them, we would be in a much better place.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Kuri on January 07, 2017, 05:32:07 am

While i have met well spoken types who are welcoming to others (particularly when they're bored) i have noticed that many of them really don't like anyone with a different typing style.
This would explain why over the past few days in particular i have been followed around by players with quite broken english (One of which has taught themselves how to make the english style letters with their non-english keyboard and learned phonetic english from watching subtitled movies over the past 6 months, i'm really impressed) i feel like i'm the only one who talks to them.  These people seem frustrated that i'm the only one who talks to them but i don't understand 90% of what they say.

Like, if you make an effort to type a 15 post eloquently over wrought introduction in chat, how come you can't make an effort to decipher "Wiy whit maayk.  Mi din" from the players who made an effort to figure out the keyboard pattern they'd never otherwise have learned?

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Legendary~Grace on January 07, 2017, 10:58:45 pm

This is a good topic for discussion, since I can relate this very well, I figured I'd drop my opinion also.

In my opinion, I see a wide variety of what "literate" and "non-literate" means when used in the game. The definition of literate is the ability to read and write, but on a game I noticed how the definition is changed. It's a very minor pet peeve of mine, but yet, even I'm guilty of using theses terms. I'm a group leader of two year old group and I've dealt with this stuff a lot. My roleplay requires a roleplay sample.

Kuri has a good point that I'd like to include in my opinion. I think that part of the reason why there is a divide and people require roleplay-samples for roleplay groups is because it would be very difficult to roleplay with someone that uses an entirely different language. Especially if you don't speak or understand that language. Don't get me wrong, some people can understand other languages and I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's extremely difficult for many. I'd also like to note that during my time with my group Intrepidus I've experienced the perspective of others that don't speak English as a their primary language which is our group's primary language. I have a few members that speak spanish as their primary language. But, they're able to roleplay in English as well. They've also taught me a bit of spanish too. :)

Also, I have to agree with Kuri because I know how it feels to post a long and detailed post and get a short reply. I try not to let it bother me just because everyone is different and I respect that, but sometimes it makes me feel like they don't truly care. I've also noticed that it seems to be a problem that leads to people having difficulty replying to roleplay. When the person you're roleplaying with has little detail or explanations, I find that many have diffuculty coming up with a post or feel bored in a way and don't want to rp. I find that when people give more effort into their posts, roleplay is more efficient and more interesting.

I also have to agree with the others too. Like I said, even I am guilty of using this sort of "divide" but what I hate is when people bash others or make fun of others for their literacy. Some people don't really think about that "illiterate" person and that they may be young of age or choose to roleplay like that. That's why I try to respect others for the way they rp and not make fun of them. Yes, I've turned people down from my group for the way they roleplay but when I do, I offer to help them by demonstrating how we would like them to roleplay. When everyone roleplays the same or similarly, it makes my group run more smoothly and with little drama. I also respect that nobody is perfect, and I accept what some people would consider "semi-literate." They make not capitalize everything or roleplay with different symbols, but I don't let small things like that stand in the way.

I just wish more people would consider what other people think instead of just bashing others for being a different literacy right off the bat because they don't like it. Think before you act, yes?

I think I managed to explain everything I thought of, but I might of forgot.
 

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: TwistedSorrowzz on January 07, 2017, 11:25:25 pm

I think this is a very good topic to talk about, As it's rarely spoken about among the community.

In my opinion the term 'literate' is 'downgraded', As in most of the groups in FeralHeart aren't that literate. Yet they require a RP sample; And don't let people who are less literate join in.
I believe if they did let the younger and more none-literate players RP with them, they could gain knowledge and become more literate themselves, Therefore letting everyone join in on the fun that is RolePlaying.

A big part of FeralHeart is RPing and not seeing everyone be able to get into a group makes me confused in a way. Speaking of the subject I didn't get into a group as I didn't fit the style of there RP.(I won't say their name since I don't want to start a fight.) Because they did this it made me mad, As they didn't tell me what I could have improved to get into the group. They just sent me off to find another group, (and I failed, Lmao.)

FOXHOUND, You actually made a great point when it comes to RP samples.
I, myself get very nervous when it comes to writing RP samples. So sometimes I miss a letter or to and I'm not let into the group. And I sometimes may even miss spell stuff as English isn't my first language.

Overall I think people should be more accepting of people who have trouble with English and such.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: FOXHOUND on January 08, 2017, 01:39:22 am

i'm glad i'm getting a lot of feedback& genuine discussion on this! but at the same time i also feel a need to reinstance my own perspective on this Unusual Phenomenon.

firstly, i don't believe there's an inherent obligation anyone holds to anyone - thus if someone makes a group that follows a specific writing style or flow, and they want members to be able to reasonably accommodate that desired image, fine! with rp groups, especially very well constructed and plotted ones that desire, say, quality over quantity, sometimes it is best to be selective about who you let join.  at the same time there is also no obligation for explanation as to why you might say no. 

but what i hate about this divide is the undeniable lack of FAIRNESS people are treated with.  it isnt just being turned down by groups or etc - it's stuff like being turned down and mocked, or ridiculed in public chat, or sarcastically being corrected in their type.  the list goes on.  that type of reaction is straightly unacceptable and yet it's so common, and people don't blame those for it? like i said there is no obligation to accept or explain or teach (but i applaud those who do because it is a kind thing!) but there's inherently an obligation for Basic Human Decency.  group leaders that reject someone because a rp sample was not to their liking are fine.  someone who doesnt wish to rp with someone else bcus there is no fun in it is fine - there's no reason for someone to force themselves to interact with another when it's just not.... there, and they're having no fun.  but there's plenty of reason and an obligation for that handful of the Completely Rude& Superiority Complex Possessing group to just.... not do what they are doing, and have decency to be polite and not bully yknow?

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: XxInsaneAsylumxX on January 08, 2017, 02:03:37 am

As it's great for everyone to involve everyone, sometimes that's just a recipe for disaster. Feuds fueled by a disconnect in grammar skills are something I experience quite often, even outside FH. A misunderstanding of each other even though we speak the same language. However, there's just so many people with poor grammar and broken speech who try to RP with others, and nobody can understand them. On the other hand, there's huge complex rp posts with "wolf-speak" or just general huge words that not even my English professor could tell you the meaning of.
The separation of "literates" and "illiterates" were mainly to avoid conflict, as frustrations of understanding each other can really cause us to lash out.
Granted, rejecting someone because their sentences aren't perfectly structured is just overkill. Strict RP rules are nonsensical, unnecessary, and selfish. If they have generally the same RP methods, there should be no reason to exclude them if you have no problem understanding their posts. And if the person asking to join has very poor RP skills, you don't just send them off without some tips and pointers.
Literate groups themselves never helped me improve, but they did set the path for me to become better at writing. I felt belittled by some of them so I strove to improve myself. But that's no way to teach anyone to improve.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Nak3dAng3l on January 08, 2017, 09:50:48 am

I find the whole "you must be literate to join us." A tad stupid. Just like how we always create bullies within our schools, enemies overseas- we're using the "us vs them" gimmick and it's absolutely useless. What difference is a few misspelled words? They're simple to fix and teaching literacy only takes a few days to a few weeks with teaching practice.

I've taught quite a few people on how to improve their literacy from semi literacy to literate if they wish so; just because they were having problems joining groups and nowadays they find it's much more fun to role play (they completely wished to change their style; just wanted to iron that in there.)- however, it can get a bit stiff with groups at times (the ones that tend to be more realistic and literate than needed). The stiff role playing, serious expressions- those two I've found soften with time and you can find a kind person underneath.

If we wish to fix this "us vs them" gimmick we need to change popular role plays as a whole. So, if you are creating a group you should not put "literate" or "active" within your group recruition. Let's see how many people we can get onto this ship so that we can fix the gimmick as a whole.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Eldether on January 09, 2017, 05:12:06 am

Honestly, I don't see a problem with roleplay samples or a literate rule for a group. Some people just like longer posts, ect. But I'd never ignore or be rude to an 'illiterate' person or beginner RPers. I'm willing to help them learn. You do have some good points though.. I'm not here to pick out a fight.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Enoki on January 09, 2017, 09:31:07 am

Ah, as many 'ave said, the term "literate" has definitely changed in the FH world. I use it as a roleplay style term, even though we all know it truly does not mean any of these such uses. Such as full sentences, constructed the best the user can make them, and not "*eats grass* hi, how are you *Cindy asks*" and so on and so forth. M'group looks only f'er y'er very best, not m'own, or someone else's, but y'ers. We try our best to teach and guide members to become a better them- a better roleplayer in their own style. Who knows? One day someone from this lil' game may become the next author of the century. All they need is a helping hand along the way.

I think people all 'ave their own definition of the terms when using it on FH, but they seem to all be similar in comparison. People will continue to use these terms as they 'ave become a staple in the lingo of FH. To change that now would take a very long time to catch on and get accustomed to, since 'tis everywhere on the forums and imprinted in the minds of practically everyone's brain. 'Tis not negative in its own sense, just in the way those few who abuse it.

I must disagree to a point, Nak3dAng3l. To put "active" in y'er group's description does not mean the members are forced to be active themselves, rather the roleplay itself is active. That is in no way negative, and as I 'ave previously stated above, neither is literacy. 'Tis the way people use these words is what makes them negative and harmful. Although, I must agree with the point I assume ye are trying to get across. Forcing members to type a certain way and be on at a certain time or a certain amount of time is no fun f'er y'er members. What is the point of playing if ye are forced to do certain things to continue to roleplay with a certain group? Members should be free to pick and choose what time or how long they stay on and how they form their roleplay posts. Freedom f'er the posts!

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Klipspringer on January 10, 2017, 01:50:21 am

I don't mean for this to come off the wrong way, but I can see why some people would want "literates" as opposed to "illiterates." Situationally speaking, in a group where players typically have a couple of parahraphs per post, especially with vivid descriptions, a "he bit her hard" or even a "The feline pounced, sinking his teeth into her" may seem out of place. I know I'm not typically one for super indulgent roleplays with tons of details, I do like to imagine it like a story I'm writing with my partners/groupmates.

But as for the whole division between or using it as an excuse to bully or exclude people is just wrong. I understand if people were to turn down someone, but there's a difference between a decline and exclusion. Personally, with my past groups, failing as they were, I prefer to go with an "Alright, but you may want to add some more details as we go along."

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: angels_ on January 10, 2017, 03:05:40 am

I'm honestly a bit guilty of this myself. But, I have a bit of a reason for it. While I firmly believe that people who are not as literate should be allowed to learn from those who are more so, I also believe that it's hard to move a story along and/or make a connection between characters when there are very obvious literary barriers between them. And, in my eyes, excessive emojis can be a sign of immaturity(not that this is necessarily a bad thing), and one of my immediate turn-offs when it comes to befriending someone in the game is when someone is using a lot of emojis/abbreviations ("xD lawl") simply because my mind sort of associates that with an immaturity. Not that this is so for everyone, and I know that I probably should be a bit more open-minded, but I believe that there is a bit of a need for the literate/illiterate barrier. Not completely, of course, keeping in mind different roleplay styles.

But imagine someone using asterisks or dashes (*/-) to roleplay with someone who roleplayed as if they were writing a book? It doesn't really fit well together. (ex. "*he bites her*" versus "His teeth dug into her skin.")

This is only my opinion though. I understand if anyone disagrees.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: barghosts on January 10, 2017, 04:03:18 am

tbh i don't know where i stand on this topic but
as you can see i'm not exactly trying to keep my sentences of a novel standard but that's just because i don't need to or want to
to me people should freely be able to type however they want whether it be "text-talk" (example: lol, ur, m8)
but i can also understand people wanting "literate" RPers in their group just to keep a good pace of story and interaction going without people having to sit there and play "decipher the message"
having said that, there's a line between a need for literate RPers and being a downright mean god-complex jerk
i'm talking about people being highly strict on what they expect in a RP post, like some of you just require to be able to type more than two sentences and have a decent spelling and punctuation
but then there are others that want even more than that, gotta be able to type out a whole book in 2 minutes, perfect grammar, a detailed to the very core. these kind of people are what makes it hard for everyone else to have a good time
but yeah like if it's just friendly banter within the chat then who gives a heck about english literacy? that's just my opinion

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: VortexAlive on January 10, 2017, 04:21:42 am

"To each, their own."

Literacy: My thoughts on this would be that everyone has their own style, be they recruiter or recruit. There are those that don't want to make a large or well detailed post and there are those that would far prefer it. I myself prefer to role play with somewhat detailed posts but find that going further causes me to freeze up and be unable to figure out what to type. I don't mind having others who outgo me, it's very nice to see how some people can make a wall of well detailed and correctly spelled text. I also don't mind having those that use very short posts or even large and incorrectly spelled posts, it can be very funny at times when mistakes are made. If it really bothers you, instead of simply rejecting them, why not ask them if they want a helping hand?

Emojis: I find nothing wrong or immature about using emojis. I've not seen/used them in role plays but in chat they can help very much to show emotion... that is what they are. =s

Random local chat: I wouldn't mind someone jumping in lke "Like*" after I just spelled something wrong, but for someone to make a huge fuss about it would be concerning... or disconcerting. There is no need to fuss about correcting, or trying to correct, something that didn't need to be corrected anyway. There's also no need to fuss about the person who tried to correct you, that would be immature.

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Smileyme2 on January 12, 2017, 06:56:51 pm

I think that literate and semi-literate RPs are absolutely fine, as long as there are some other RPs out there which don't require as much writing skill to join. I personally don't mind that much as long as I can just about read what the other person is saying (I often RP with someone who never uses full stops), but other people want to feel immersed in their RP and find it hard to do so when someone says ' rawr xD' in the middle of speech. (Not that there's a problem with 'rawr xD', ahahah)

Maybe you could make your own RP for anyone to join? That way, you could have lots of fun RPing and improving your writing whilst also letting other people feel included!

Title: Re: opinion on 'literacy / illiteracy' divide
Post by: Misterwives on January 13, 2017, 05:49:12 am

I'm going to drop my two cents in, just because this kind of topic gets me going. FeralHeart is probably one of the only roleplay communities in which I've seen 'literate' and 'illiterate' be an accepted term when describing a writing style. In FH standards, being 'illiterate' has been molded into something entirely different from it's true definition, and the term illiterate in general, I feel, is just another way to strengthen this divide between the stronger writers and the weaker ones. 'Literate' roleplayers seem to forget that there are children on this game as well, and that they once started off with similar writing styles because simply, they didn't know much better. I can't stand when people stick their noses up at others in this game, honestly. I've been playing this game since 2012, and trust me, NEARLY ALL of us had that 'illiterate' phase.

I truly could give a flying duck how someone speaks to me in normal chat, whether it be proper sentences or abbreviations. However, in roleplay, I'd like to be given back what I put in; decent posts that aren't two to three sentences long. I need detail, I need content, I need to feel like the other person is interested or else I'm going to get awkward and feel annoying, or loose interest entirely. I'm not saying you need perfect grammar, perfect sentence structure, perfect spelling - nobody is perfect. We're all human. It also doesn't help that FeralHeart has no spell check, either. But I need to see some sort of effort (and be able to read what you're writing to me) in order to enjoy a roleplay experience. I do take roleplay samples for my groups, and I have no problem giving them; and I like to believe I'm farely lenient when it comes to grammar and spelling. As long as I can seen that someone is putting forth the effort, and if their writing is readable, than I don't see a reason to reject someone from a 'literate' group.

 I had taken a break from FH for awhile to join other communities, and when I rolled back in, I resented the term 'literate' just because it was so ignorant. But unfortunately, I find myself still having to use this term when advertising, or looking for groups to join, because it seems to be the accepted term through out the game, and there's really no way display your group's writing requirements anymore.  After General/Global chat was removed, you're extremely limited, so you have to spit out requirements in the easiest and shortest way possible, 'lit', 'semi-lit', etc. I unfortunately don't see the terms going anywhere as they're just accepted as game lingo at this point, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets irked by it.

oh geez I rambled I'm sorry lol.