I thought this game was for 13+?

[Feareh]

You seem to be missing something that is important here. not everything in the internet is protected by child trickery of lying about there age to get into a place. As that law may be stated when signing up in the Feral Heart site there are terms and limits that a user must agree on when registering. Whether the child comes to a unsupervised internet game without any supervision is not the mods fault but it is parents. the best thing the mods and staff can do is to help and fix the problems that are presented and to make things mellow.

mind you should also read there legal thread that was posted a long time ago
http://feral-heart.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=44

Need I remind you all that a game such as this is perfect for a predator to do their dirty work? So turning a blind eye toward underaged users is essentially saying, hey, if you got assaulted due to telling somebody information, it's on you.


That's just wrong.[/color]

As some have stated, the site is very strict in protecting a persons personal information and regardless of that site you visit children will go to it regardless of warnings. Such as facebook or myspace at the time.
FH had stated that you must be at a certain age to play this game so don't say that it was never implicated to begin with. But as a true fact, the internet is a tricky think to where its the one place where you cant ask for ID.

As for those with lesser literative skill, it's a sort of hit and miss thing in every roleplaying community. Honestly I recommend they read some good books before trying to write their own stories--gain a better foundation for the expression of language. Language is an art, and the most I can say of most users is... they're doodling.

Please do not insult some users based of there literative skills, please be mindful of who your audience is. As I too like to see creativity in people I do love all types of art. If people want to start out in FH and make there own RP with their choice let them.

[LordSuragaha]

No, I was instead pointing out the opposite of it--that LordSura seemed to indicate that by their useage of dismissive wording. They seemed to say 'hey, if something bad happens to a kid lol we warned them so' and that seems irresponsible to me.

That is incorrect but that is also your interpretation of what I said. It is typical that some individuals like to try and draw some kind of "sarcasm" or "immaturity" in my responses or warp my words to make it seem like I was irresponsible but I was quite serious about what I said. I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth or mixing what I said in a very straight forward way to fit some kind of twisted point they want to make.

If you would stop racing to conclusions or drawing assumptions about my choice of words or my tone you'd realize that I was explaing that we can try our best to make sure that everyone is informed of the age registriction and keep the game safe but there is little that we can do to actually keep these younger users off the game. We can't check their IDs so we don't really know people's real ages here. We put the restriction up because yes different countries have different laws and we respect that but also it is a precaution since we know we really can't block these kids from joining its so that they and their parents know we did our part in warning them. They can't say we aren't trying. We're doing what we can to keep this community safe but if we can't really always catch the rule breakers and keep out the young kids where does that leave us?

My response was to explain the point that by us having the age restriction there they know we are aware and they should be aware of what's going on so don't try to push off that we are irresponsible if there really isn't much we can do to keep the kids off. The best we can do is if the kids keep coming we can keep struggling to keep the game as safe as possible for them.

[Nowe]

Literally people admit their true age daily on the forum, and still login the follow days, weeks, and months I wouldn't call that proper age handling.


Sure the forum can protect ones identity, but will that stop a child from posting their address, number, and other personal information in-game? no it will not. The forum may be secure in-game is not.  Whats stopping a child from telling someone who has "Gained their trust" information? Should the child have learned thats not safe yes. Do all children know its not safe? No. Will all children listen to their parents? No.

[shusuke]

It's not that hard to keep an eye on players who are underage.

They may lie, but there are those that admit it. All one has to do is disable their accounts until they are of legal age to be on the site or use the service according to COPPA.

It's like drinking age. There's a limit set there for your own safety. COPPA is the same thing but is set up to protect children from potential threats on the internet, such as sexual predators etc etc.

You can't catch ALL of them, but the ones that you DO catch, you should hit hard and fast. It may seem unfair but it's one of those things where it's done with the best intentions at heart.

[FinalJump]

I did not insult anybody, but that said, people are free to feel in what way they will about my words. I said I recommend a book. I didn't base it on nationality, age, or any discriminatory factors whatsoever. Even I read a book when I find my wording lacking so it's merely passive advice. Some people don't accept even that of course, and I'm not about to shove any of it upon them. I've no need to be so rude. Don't make it sound like I attacked somebody.

Also, I never said it should be immediately known by some holy power the age of the users. Obviously I wouldn't be so far-fetched. No, I mean to say you should handle those users who openly state being younger than the required age as is legal of you to do. Willingly harboring those younger than the 13+ age limit is a criminal offense, and I didn't write the law, it isn't me at all the point should be argued with. It's rather misguided to even try. I'm saying, ban all users you see openly stating being younger than 13 until their 13th birthday or approximate time frame they would achieve that, and investigate all claims of knowing so-and-so who is underaged. Better safe than sorry. Keyword, safe. Not for just you, but for the community as a whole. Take your reasons from either side of the fence and feel free to, but law is law and this is international.

If you need more manpower to effectively moderate your community, get more mods. It's what they're for, much like your normal police officers.

You're handing me an awful lot of excuses as to why you can't abide by law, and I want to flatly say I never stated for the staff to be perfect. Again, if you expect me to be reasonable, please understand that I am indeed being reasonable. Perfection is a silly notion.

What isn't, is for me to direct your attention to what Nowe posted. You literally saw people admit to knowing or being 12 or younger on this very thread. What have you done about it? Don't entertain me with the answer, entertain your community/those who're watching this thread. What do you want them to see?

Staff who is more quick to defend themselves or staff that gets things done?

What opinion do you want to give--the impression, you want your community to have of you? Granted, you could very well not care and that is a viable option but then you wouldn't be a good option for the public relations side of staffing. Not the worst though, definitely not the worst.

Edit - Shusuke has voiced an opinion similar to mine. c8

[WolfQueen]

I feel the need to speak up here.

The existence of the 13+ rule stems from COPPA law, as seen here:

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm

The law is in existence in the interest of those younger than 13 and while that doesn't mean they're lesser than anybody over 13, it does mean they are legally protected. Being such, as far as I'm aware, it's a crime to knowingly harbor them on a site such as this or a game such as Feral Heart. And it's difficult to stem the tide of them rolling in if nothing is ever done about it, as seen on this very thread. You're essentially saying hey come here, we accept you too.

And it's wrong.

To back this up, you need to understand the reason COPPA exists. It isn't saying that mature underaged users don't exist. It's saying either the majority is vulnerable. Vulnerable? Yes, they are. Children are typically less wise to the realities, and sometimes give personal information such as addresses, phone numbers, and other details of their lives that they legally should not do, to strangers or people they 'assume' they can trust.

This allows child predators a way of contacting them.

Need I remind you all that a game such as this is perfect for a predator to do their dirty work? So turning a blind eye toward underaged users is essentially saying, hey, if you got assaulted due to telling somebody information, it's on you.

If the game is stated to be for 13+ and some young kid comes on here and by some chance reads something inappropriate for their age we warned them so it's not like parents can say "but my child etc etc"... There's a rule written. If you decide to break it do it at your own expense.

Well tough luck kids, nobody here cares to do more than bare minimum to protect you.

That's just wrong.

This is what concerns me about children under 13 on this site, the COPPA law. Since this game doesn't have some thing like Club Penguin or Neopets has that allows children 12- on the game, I wonder if children at that age range is even allowed on FH in any case; if FH is breaking the law.

Well, I've been on this game since I was 11, so me arguing about children on this game more further would make me pretty much a hypocrite. I totally agree with you Final Jump, anyways.

[Lady_Alizarin]

If you need more manpower to effectively moderate your community, get more mods. It's what they're for, much like your normal police officers.

You're handing me an awful lot of excuses as to why you can't abide by law, and I want to flatly say I never stated for the staff to be perfect. Again, if you expect me to be reasonable, please understand that I am indeed being reasonable. Perfection is a silly notion.

What isn't, is for me to direct your attention to what Nowe posted. You literally saw people admit to knowing or being 12 or younger on this very thread. What have you done about it? Don't entertain me with the answer, entertain your community/those who're watching this thread. What do you want them to see?

Staff who is more quick to defend themselves or staff that gets things done?

What opinion do you want to give--the impression, you want your community to have of you? Granted, you could very well not care and that is a viable option but then you wouldn't be a good option for the public relations side of staffing. Not the worst though, definitely not the worst.

Edit - Shusuke has voiced an opinion similar to mine. c8

What are you, a lawyer or something?

Getting more staff members is better said than done. When it comes to a sight like this, not just anybody can become a moderator. There are requirements, qualifications and standards to meet in order to become a moderator of FH. The current staff don't want to promote someone to hold such responsiblities and powers to the wrong people.

Back to the age thing now...

Like others have said, the kids aren't entirely to blame when it comes to logging onto the world of the internet. It all has to do with the parents. If junior gets on his family computer and logs onto an adult website that has some explicit content on it, well it's the parents fault for not setting up the parental control settings properly, or putting any in the first place. If they did, little billy wouldn't be looking at those kind of websites. It's also up to the parents to make sure their kids don't go on random chat websites to where they can give out personal information to complete and total strangers. I understand how dangerous it can be when someone, especially a child, gives out personal information to strangers online. No one knows who those strangers can be; perverts, ex-convicts, undercover spies, criminals, etc. Which is also why I beleive parents should restrict their kids from going on chat websites where they have access to contact strangers.

And then there are some parents who just really don't care what their kid gets into at all. As long as little billy isn't bothering Mom or Dad, and is playing on a game about animals, they won't really bother looking into what it is the kid is seeing on this game that looks seemingly harmless. As far as some parents are concerened, "Oh it's just a game about animals, it's probably for kids so what harm can it be?" Sometimes the parents don't really look at the details or warnings posted on some game sites. Do you think junior is going to tell Mom and Dad about the rules, warnings, and other precautions an online game comes with? Probably not, since they don't want to hear Mom or Dad say, "Sorry, Billy, but you can't play that game. It's not safe."

Now to cut to the chase. Are you suggesting that FH should participate in the whole COPPA thing like WolfQuest, Neopets, and other "child games" have done? Do you really think it will make much of a difference at all?

[Nowe]

If you need more manpower to effectively moderate your community, get more mods. It's what they're for, much like your normal police officers.

You're handing me an awful lot of excuses as to why you can't abide by law, and I want to flatly say I never stated for the staff to be perfect. Again, if you expect me to be reasonable, please understand that I am indeed being reasonable. Perfection is a silly notion.

What isn't, is for me to direct your attention to what Nowe posted. You literally saw people admit to knowing or being 12 or younger on this very thread. What have you done about it? Don't entertain me with the answer, entertain your community/those who're watching this thread. What do you want them to see?

Staff who is more quick to defend themselves or staff that gets things done?

What opinion do you want to give--the impression, you want your community to have of you? Granted, you could very well not care and that is a viable option but then you wouldn't be a good option for the public relations side of staffing. Not the worst though, definitely not the worst.

Edit - Shusuke has voiced an opinion similar to mine. c8

What are you, a lawyer or something?

Getting more staff members is better said than done. When it comes to a sight like this, not just anybody can become a moderator. There are requirements, qualifications and standards to meet in order to become a moderator of FH. The current staff don't want to promote someone to hold such responsiblities and powers to the wrong people.

Back to the age thing now...

Like others have said, the kids aren't entirely to blame when it comes to logging onto the world of the internet. It all has to do with the parents. If junior gets on his family computer and logs onto an adult website that has some explicit content on it, well it's the parents fault for not setting up the parental control settings properly, or putting any in the first place. If they did, little billy wouldn't be looking at those kind of websites.
And then there are some parents who just really don't care what their kid gets into at all. As long as little billy isn't bothering Mom or Dad, and is playing on a game about animals, they won't really bother looking into what it is the kid is seeing on this game that looks seemingly harmless. As far as some parents are concerened, "Oh it's just a game about animals, it's probably for kids so what harm can it be?" Sometimes the parents don't really look at the details or warnings posted on some game sites. Do you think junior is going to tell Mom and Dad about the rules, warnings, and other precautions an online game comes with? Probably not, since they don't want to hear Mom or Dad say, "Sorry, Billy, but you can't play that game. It's not safe."

Now to cut to the chase. Are you suggesting that FH should participate in the whole COPPA thing like WolfQuest, Neopets, and other "child games" have done? Do you really think it will make much of a difference at all?

Lol considering this is a ACTUAL law that applies to FH along with many other games I would say it better be done. Lawyer or not we have a right to post our opinion unless you have a problem with that sweet heart. Parents can't surveillance their kids 24/7 nor do all parents care enough to watch what their kid does. If your going to run a online game you have to take responsibility.  There are many methods of going through the game to ban underagers besides hiring more staff.

[FinalJump]

Having once been an underage user does not denote hypocrisy should you speak about it. Your experience is unique to you after all. However, understood! c8

No, I'm not a lawyer but if you're looking for any sort of credentials the most I can offer you is I took a study in a career school for law enforcement. We studied on laws, gained some tactical knowledge officers use every day, and took a field trip out to a state police academy for a day. Worst personal experience of my life. Was done in a very military fashion. Most of the kids who graduated my class with me went to the military under the Navy, National Reserves, Army and other branches or subcategories. But as for where my understanding comes from it's by simply retaining a knowledge on laws once I've read them and being able to source my material, which is fairly general and anybody can do it if they have the desire.

I never said for FH to open up its doors to a 12 or less community. The legal red-tape would be a nightmare to handle. I've made it clear I've only stated a better handling of what they already have should be done. Once more, I point out my question as to what has been done with the ones who admitted to being or knowing underage users on this very thread.

And as for finding mods, obviously it's not easy, and I never said it was easy. I've been staff on a few things, I've spoken with staff of other sites/games, I've done my back and forth of how things can be done and various perspectives on such. Because it is just that--a perspective. It varies from person to person and I've been entirely vague as to anything further than the simple desire for FH to be serious about COPPA. If I was insinuating anything less legal based and more based on my opinion, we'd be here a while and it'd be utterly wrong of me. However stating a law and stressing the importance of it is beneficial.

Nowe is correct, however I was pointing out the excuse of having trouble managing the community, and indirectly stating I disagree that it should be a problem to manage it.

No, I am not a lawyer, lawyers defend people from the law and that's a little different than what I'm doing, and to bring in a good debate I don't need to be anything you'd find in a criminal court besides a juror.

[Lady_Alizarin]

Lol considering this is a ACTUAL law that applies to FH along with many other games I would say it better be done. Lawyer or not we have a right to post our opinion unless you have a problem with that sweet heart. Parents can't surveillance their kids 24/7 nor do all parents care enough to watch what their kid does. If your going to run a online game you have to take responsibility.  There are many methods of going through the game to ban underagers besides hiring more staff.

Sweet heart? Okay, I understand that we all have the right to express our opinions about something, especially when it comes to laws/regulations and other leagal matters.... however, that doesn't give you a reason to be disrespectful.

I think it would be up to the moderators to decide whether or not a COPPA thing needs to be in effect on this site. It's not my website, and it's not my place to make that decission. Try talking to Raz or Red about that, I suppose.