Author Topic: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal  (Read 12571 times)

Offline LordSuragaha

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2020, 05:48:01 am »
The last time someone critiqued the staff while they were on MOTS, if I recall correctly, some of you called that person 'disgusting'. And yes, it was an actual critique. So take that as you may.

 A correction, since this is an inaccurate statement. What one of the staff said was that they felt disgusted by the tone of the critique. That was their own personal opinion. They did not say or imply that the person was disgusting. The staff in question then proceeded to agree with the critique itself, explain their reasons why they were inactive, and even state that they would improve that. They then improved their inactivity.

I do feel it necessary to make sure we do not share misinformation as that isn’t fair to anyone here.

I will say, however, that these answers seem to be bouncing back and forth. One person says there's a surprise waiting to happen because you want to keep it a surprise, and then the next party says "the reason we can't share is because of x and x" and nothing really regarding a personal decision. It's a bit conflicting, don't you agree?

I agree as I’ve seen it myself occasionally. Even when there is direct clear communication between people the messages get scrambled between person to person passing of info and so forth. It’s a reason why when you were on the staff team staff had these talks of all agreeing on things before going out and talking publicly about it. Unfortunately there is the matter of the teams being split now and communication varying between individuals or just their own interpretations of things. There’s also people not even on the staff discussing certain things and those things being misinterpreted and further confusing matters. This is a reason why being so open with communication is a double edged sword, and why there’s no universal correct approach within gaming communities. Once something is out there it spreads fast and people will warp the information just by sharing it over and over again. Unless there’s specific people or places appointed to discuss specific things you’ll run into this issue, and even still with that you will. We have the newsletters for that.

As of right now a lot of the mixed messages are in regards to the same thing: the future of the game’s development. Community wants to know what’s going on if anything and staff can’t say much to deny or confirm yet because it’s not up to us and some of us don’t even know for sure what’s planned. The surprise aspect was mentioned likely to keep the answer neutral while there is no concrete roadmap or answer of yes or no yet. It keeps people anticipating something and interested in the meantime while the details of the specifics are worked out upon.


Staff: I hope you hear me when I say this. You have not taken well to positive discussions before, nor have you taken well to critiques. This I can prove.

Quote
I think the “issue” with communication is that some folks are assuming things about the staff or how they might respond rather than just communicating.

I'm quoting this because this is important. People might be scared of you, and for good reason. I myself, was even scared of you lot while I was on the staff team. I'm going to be open and honest, but when the admins told the staff team we could approach them with any problem they had, I did not expect the kind of negative responses I got from you all at the time when I actually took your word for it. I still hold this fear to this day, despite the apologies given. People may feel the same way about approaching you. Please take this into account. Some of these may not be assumptions, but genuine fears based on previous experiences.

I appreciate you sharing that. What we had at the time though was also the product of unprecedented steps taken after NMO again by Raz. I’m aware that there were some occasions where intentions were misunderstood or individuals got upset and tensions flared more than they needed to due to everyone having strong convictions and opinions on matters. Unfortunately where things went wrong is where individuals took those disagreements to a personal level on both sides.

I will not discuss that in detail publicly though as that was between staff, and everyone involved deserves the respect of their privacy.

What matters from all that is that we all left with a learning experience. I can speak for myself that after the previous team was removed I reflected on situations. I reflect on why certain people reacted how they did, or why they may have felt a certain way. I heavily considered ways to improve different aspects of staffing in general and my own approach. I still practice that with the current team. I leave it up to them to say if they feel otherwise towards me. But it’s always a learning experience and there’s always room for learning especially as new staff come and go.

I’m still sorry for how things ended between us but I still appreciate the experience and have plenty moments with you and others that I look back fondly on.


Please figure out a way to properly structure the team without the need for waiting on a single voice. Perhaps a majority vote would do well in cases when the head honcho isn't present or can't be present. Come up with some sort of collaborative decision that allows you to get things done without having to escalate every project upwards.

And from then on, if you find that solution. Have community votes, have them pick what they want to see, what projects they want to have. Do not pick yourself, but instead, give the community a variety of projects at their disposal and vote them into existence if possible. This is the best route for community interaction and feedback.

We are already and will definitely continue to take that into consideration especially going forward in the coming months. There’s still a lot to do and fix. Thank you for the suggestions as always.

Offline Morgra

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2020, 06:14:22 am »
The last time someone critiqued the staff while they were on MOTS, if I recall correctly, some of you called that person 'disgusting'. And yes, it was an actual critique. So take that as you may.

Sura just clarified this but I thought I'd post my own experience on this statement since I was the staff that said I felt "disgusted".

I never called the MOTS in question "disgusting".

What actually happened was the thread with criticism was linked in the staff Discord server asking how everyone felt about the thread and I replied with "disgusted". At the time, I will completely own that I was upset at the way the thread was presented but in no way did I feel like I should completely disregard the criticism. And I certainly didn't throw insults around because of the way I felt.

I have the screenshot of this incident happening and if you would like to see it, I will private message you it since it was a private staff conversation you were a part of.

Since that incident, my point still stands about the thread but I have reflected on how I responded and I wish I would have approached it and the thread as a whole in a different way. I wished I would have approached the MOTS in private messages and explained my reasoning better. But that's part of being human, right? Accepting you could have done differently and changing your perspectives and actions based upon that reflection and hindsight. Which is also why I did improve after the criticism was presented.

Accepting criticism is something that I am always trying to improve upon.



One of my favorite YouTubers always said "Seek to understand before being understood" and that has resonated with me ever since I first heard it.

I am doing my best to try to listen to what you all have to say. I know we are all hurting because of the state of this game.


I appreciate the rest of what you had to say in this most recent post, Cal. Even though we have had our differences in the past.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 06:16:31 am by Morgra »
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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2020, 06:29:45 am »
@Morgra and @Sura, thank you for your reply.

Perhaps I misworded, I apologize, but I thank you for the clarification and bringing up the topic regardless. The reason that resonated with me was because it was on the topic of criticisms and critiques.

It seemed that the word was moreso directed at the post itself in that sense rather than the individual, so thank you for the correction. Regardless, it was not a word that should have been used from the get-go to describe a critique that was made to genuinely help the team. However, that is long ago and I'm sure you are taking them in stride, I simply brought it up for the sake of this conversation. I felt it was a conversation needing to be had.

Despite the differences of opinions we have had, I do still respect the work and effort you put into this game. I have always admired the drive of those who wish to seek a better outcome, and I know you all have the wish to make things better.

That's always been the end goal. To make things better. I guess perhaps everyone just has a different way of going about it, which can cause tension and disruption, no doubt. Sometimes we just have to take the critiques in stride and keep that pep in our step. I understand how some criticisms can hurt, human nature is based around pride, and damaging that pride can feel 'not so good' to put it in perspective.

I thank you both for reciprocating what I said in the post, and admitting to the growth you are experiencing with every mistake, critique, and struggle. Moderation is tough, but the benefits reaped at the end of the day are worth it to see a community happy. I know that's what you guys want, and I do hope that's what you guys will receive, and in return, be relieved and happy yourselves.


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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2020, 08:04:41 am »
I apologize for the sloppiness of this comment, it is more or less my thoughts jumbled together.

Because we care about our community and the game. We want to see it thrive, and we want to preserve a place that still means so much to many. A place that after several years of absence you still see old users return to and look fondly upon.
 
For those that seem to think we don’t care, aren’t listening, and aren’t trying, do you ever just question then why we are still here? Does it really make sense to think that a staff team that has to deal with constant misinformation, doubt, ridicule, trolling, death threats and so forth would stick around for nothing? You’ve got folks here who have busy personal lives, health struggles, relationships, kids, jobs, etc pouring their time and souls into an absolutely free internet game daily for seemingly no reward.
 
There’s got to be a reason, and that’s because we care. We want to make you all happy. We value the feelings and desires of total strangers enough to stick around for countless years. We keep trying, and you know what? We don’t always succeed. That’s life. That goes for anything you do. You can’t always make everyone happy, even yourself, but heck we sure will try and if that means we have to keep trying then so be it. That’s why we are still here, and that’s why we will not just let it die.

Everyone commenting undoubtedly has sacrificed time and energy into this game. Sura, you especially have, considering you have been caring for this game for many years throughout its ups-and-downs. It is silly for anyone to disagree that you have put time and effort into moderating this game and interacting with the community via the forum.
 
Still, realistically, why do people join games such as these? Do people typically join a gaming community after evaluating how much the administration has personally sacrificed to keep a game orderly? People join for content and the experience of playing the game, not for how emotionally invested staff members⁠—not even developers⁠—are in the game.
 
I will argue that not everyone in-game even knows who the staff are because they do not care to know if they do not directly affect their experience. When I joined FH, I had no idea who the staff were, how they worked, how active they were, etc. Once I became more involved in the forum, I dedicated a lot of my time and regarded the staff very highly for their work, although looking back now, sometimes I wasn’t really sure what that work was (in regard to promised forum work, anyways). After my experience with staff head-on and my experience with administrating the community’s largest Discord server, I can now form my own opinions on the game’s administration through various interactions with the community, current staff, and former staff.
 
As you know, people can be aggressive when it comes to online community management, which is obviously the downside to administration on any sort of online outlet. There have been many disagreements between the community and staff, and there probably will always be regardless of what staff do. It is a consequence of dealing with the public⁠—some people can handle it and others cannot. This seems to be a reoccurring issue FH experiences. The emotional explanations that have been used over and over (although they are totally valid to an extent!) does not excuse the lack of urgent work this game needs to recover. If you are inactive or unable to be online for an extended period of time, a staff member should do the game the favor of stepping down. Alternatively, hire more staff.
 
Because to let it die, is to simply give up! To give up on caring... And honestly I think thats more of a failure then any possible unpopular patch or future decision.

This comment was especially thoughtful and sweet, but as much as I want to agree with this, as I mentioned earlier, in the end, the typical FH player (not anyone active on the forum) does not care about your involvement. They just want a game to play. Considering the increasing lack of activity in-game (that many people mistake for an increase in registration as they conveniently forget the registration was closed for a majority of FH’s uptime…), something needs to be done. There have been many people willing to help FH both new and old. Suggesting people that have also worked their -Removed by moderator, inappropriate language- off to voluntarily assist staff with reports in the past as now “giving constant misinformation, doubt, [and] ridicule” only breeds more tension. If you are distrusting of the community, the community will only be distrusting of you. The reason some individuals denote all staff as “bad” just because of past conflicts, such as, for example, Raz and the MOTS situation, is because a team is only as strong as its “weakest” member. I agree that it is hurtful to devote time to this game and only be disregarded, but it is something current staff do have to work with, unfortunately.
 
I will say, however, that these answers seem to be bouncing back and forth. One person says there's a surprise waiting to happen because you want to keep it a surprise, and then the next party says "the reason we can't share is because of x and x" and nothing really regarding a personal decision. It's a bit conflicting, don't you agree?

I agree as I’ve seen it myself occasionally. Even when there is direct clear communication between people the messages get scrambled between person to person passing of info and so forth. It’s a reason why when you were on the staff team staff had these talks of all agreeing on things before going out and talking publicly about it. Unfortunately there is the matter of the teams being split now and communication varying between individuals or just their own interpretations of things. There’s also people not even on the staff discussing certain things and those things being misinterpreted and further confusing matters. This is a reason why being so open with communication is a double edged sword, and why there’s no universal correct approach within gaming communities. Once something is out there it spreads fast and people will warp the information just by sharing it over and over again. Unless there’s specific people or places appointed to discuss specific things you’ll run into this issue, and even still with that you will. We have the newsletters for that.
 
As of right now a lot of the mixed messages are in regards to the same thing: the future of the game’s development. Community wants to know what’s going on if anything and staff can’t say much to deny or confirm yet because it’s not up to us and some of us don’t even know for sure what’s planned. The surprise aspect was mentioned, likely to keep the answer neutral while there is no concrete roadmap or answer of yes or no yet. It keeps people anticipating something and interested in the meantime while the details of the specifics are worked out upon.

Communication between an administrating body and a community can be tricky I agree; there is no correct approach. Given FH is certainly more vulnerable to “inside issues” when considering the split staff teams and also the split between Raz and staff/devs, making communication even more difficult. Taking into account this unfortunate situation and FH’s dwindling community, being more personal with the community would probably benefit both parties. Although it may not be seen as the most professional path, it would establish a stronger bond between the regular community and staff. Simply being involved on Discord even helps with this. As Calvary mentioned, some staff can be scary, even if you are already a staff member.
 
The reason misinformation is so rampant within the community is because staff as a whole are not public about moderation, administration, updates (before they are released), etc. The community doesn’t have much else to grasp onto to keep them excited about this game. All I ask is that FH staff are more willing to be upfront with mistakes and issues the game has. Maintaining this positive facade when the reality of this game is bleak only makes people more frustrated. It's important to be positive but it is expected that administration should be urgent and more realistic in regards to this game’s outlook with evidence backing their statements (e.g.: a roadmap or even lack thereof). I loved FH growing up and I do truly hope it finally gets out of this rut, but without the admittance of past mistakes on the administrative side of things, it is likely nothing will change.

One of my favorite YouTubers always said "Seek to understand before being understood" and that has resonated with me ever since I first heard it.

I am doing my best to try to listen to what you all have to say. I know we are all hurting because of the state of this game.

I appreciate the rest of what you had to say in this most recent post, Cal. Even though we have had our differences in the past.

I actually do agree that quote is strongly representative of everyone's struggle here. I appreciate and thank you for this comment wholeheartedly.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 06:18:03 pm by Kerriki »

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2020, 09:30:23 am »
I have nothing to say except I hope FH will shine again someday, ignoring the fact that I'm not really here anymore. Who knows, maybe there'll be a trend of playing old online games?
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Offline Kuri

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2020, 09:48:54 am »
There is a game series that has been running on computers for over 30 years at this point.  It goes back maybe 40 years.

It's been 'finished, cancelled, remade, cancelled again, ect ect' many many times.  Both by game companies and fans.  So many title releases.
It had a small dedicated fan base.  They remade it several times.
They made it in secondlife.
They made it from crysis mods.  And had something that was better than any of the genuine games.
They made it in cryengine a couple of times.
They have a new sequel, finally, that some fans find questionable but it's finally here and modern.

If something has a dedicated enough fan base... never say never.
This might become one of those titles that never truly dies.
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Offline LadySigyn

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2020, 11:33:23 am »
There is a game series that has been running on computers for over 30 years at this point.  It goes back maybe 40 years.

It's been 'finished, cancelled, remade, cancelled again, ect ect' many many times.  Both by game companies and fans.  So many title releases.
It had a small dedicated fan base.  They remade it several times.
They made it in secondlife.
They made it from crysis mods.  And had something that was better than any of the genuine games.
They made it in cryengine a couple of times.
They have a new sequel, finally, that some fans find questionable but it's finally here and modern.

If something has a dedicated enough fan base... never say never.
This might become one of those titles that never truly dies.

I've been reading this thread from the shadows, but I just have to come in and state that truer words have never been spoken.

arilioness

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2020, 01:23:38 pm »
This is just my opinion, but guys we are having like 100 players daily on the game, how can you even call that ''dead''?, yes the community seems to not be so happy with the staff and that they seem to be bored with the game and that the game is bad and lags and all that stuff but first of all, staff are still working on the game and yes maybe the surprise effect should be removed if players really dont like it but we should still appreciate the staff's hard work, second of all if your game lags then it might not only be the game but also just your computer, i heard of someone with a super mega gaming pc and fh ran terribly on it but i have a regular laptop and it works perfectly with no crashes at all, it depends on what kinda computer you got, and like i mentioned before in this message, how is the game dying exactly if 100 players play daily?, as long as players are playing it and newcomers are here, the game cant really be called dead, can it

Offline Dark_heart

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2020, 01:57:20 pm »
You can say I'm just a kid from 2019 who don't know what is going on.

But I wanna say my opinion.

I do want to mention though, the server is on a steady decline. I know many in this post have mentioned or denied this because there are still 'over 100 people playing the game,' this is false and incorrect information.

Why?

https://gyazo.com/9d510780a26fb1169924b62ee56c1a35

This counter is not accurate by any means. It has never been accurate, but maybe a long time ago it used to. You ever noticed how even when the server was fully shut down, it still said there were around 40 people online? The counter is inaccurate, and has been inaccurate. To give you a proper estimate, I guarantee the game itself gets a little over 40-50 players. I do strongly believe it never gets above 100, and hasn't for a long, long time.

Probably I agree because I wanted to count online members, I mean - walking from world to world and counting members. I know, people move, but when I counted there was around 35 members. Counter said it's 57.

About problems staff-members, staff-Raz, etc. - well, I'm not staff, I'm not developer, I'm not Raz. But I know, they wanna make game best for us. They really do hard work. Of course sometimes can be some dramas, problems, etc., but, heck, try understand that.

For question "why not just let it die?"
Because:
• as Sura said: you really wanna give up?
• I'm not veteran of Impressive Title servers, but Feral Heart is one of best IT servers.
• look on other IT servers: Glasmar, Dawn of Eternity or Last Moon. How much people  before afternoon you see? Sorry, but I'd rather play "dead" game with some people than play "live" game alone.
• if you really think it's dead, why you don't just leave this "sick dog"?

And remember: respect other's answers. I'm not saying someone doesn't respect, but... please, remember that.

It's all.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 02:08:47 pm by Dark_heart »
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arilioness

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Re: This game isn't dying, it's already dead: a proposal
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2020, 02:04:45 pm »
Didnt know the counter is inacurrate, but whenever i play i still see around at least 10 or 20, maybe even more people online, as long as people are playing, the game cant be called ''dead'', and like dark_heart said, whether its dead or not, if people like the game, then they are allowed to play it and dont have to give the game up, and those who dont like it, can just leave if they want to ^^